D&D 4E 4e, Non-Martial Characters, and Limited Feat Choices

[Zurai]

<Shrug> Regardless of the pedantism, a 5% chance for even a 15% chance to hit increase for maybe 2-3 other people for one round is an incredibly weak feat. In addition, it only triggers on critical hits, which means the target isn't likely to survive long enough for all of the other members of the party to attack it (if they're even in position to do so) unless it's a solo or elite. Sure, if you're fighting Orcus or the Tarrasque, it might be useful. If you're fighting a standard encounter of 4 minions, an artillery, a brute, and a lurker (for example), it's going to be nigh-useless.

Precise Hunter is a very weak feat. Lethal Hunter is also a very weak feat. Eladrin Soldier is a weak feat for class that don't typically melee attack and classes that only attack once per power in melee. My point still stands - all race/class combos have extremely limited feat selection if you avoid weak feats, and you can't even fill most race/class combos with feats if you avoid weak feats and generic (Skill Training, etc) feats.

At least with the 3.5 PHB you could build most characters without being more or less forced to take Alertness, Skill Focus, and so on. You really can't with the 4E PHB.

 

[mlund]

And 4e is severely lacking in feat choice even with a fair comparison of only PH to PH.

Actually, I decide to make an actually fair comparison of both PHB's Feat options.

- First I eliminated Feats made obsolete by 4th Edition giving everyone the benefit - such as Precise Shot and Eschew Materials.

- Then I eliminate Feats that weren't threat-appropriate - like Spell Penetration - since that's what you did with Dodge Giants.

- I removed Mounted Combat / Archery just like you did.

- I also eliminated Feats that weren't level appropriate - like Meta-Magic Feats that make 1st level spells into Level 2+ spells that a 2nd level Cleric couldn't cast, multiple feats, or BAB > +1

- Next I eliminated feats that a character with low Dex, Int, and Str could not access - such as the Power Attack Tree, Dodge Tree, and Combat Expertise Tree.

- I erased Item Creation feats since they've been rolled into Rituals.

- I removed the Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, and Armor Proficiency skills since Clerics start with these for free in 3.5

- Then I removed any feat that granted a benefit only to a melee attack - such as Weapon Focus and Blind Fighting

- Then I removed any feat that grants a non-scaling +2 bonus to two skills - such as Animal Affinity and that other junk no one ever picked.

I was left with the following 19 feats:
Augment Summoning
Combat Casting
Diehard
Endurance
Extra Turning
Great Fortitude
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Point Blank Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Run
Skill Focus
Spell Focus
Toughness
Tower Shield Proficiency
Track

Of the above, I think the following would qualify under your critical criteria as "useless" for your character: Run, Track, Quick Draw, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Diehard, Endurance, and Extra Turning.

Tower Shields and Combat Casting seem to be obsolete concepts in 4E.

That leaves us with 8 feats from the PHB that might qualify as marginally useful for a 2nd Level Cleric - 3 of which have become more powerful in 4E and moved to the Paragon Tier (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude).

It leaves you with the same old, same old as 4E: Toughness, Improved Initiative, and Skill Focus along with Augment Summoning (though 2 round duration Summon Monster I seems pretty weak), Point Blank Shot, and Spell Focus.

So I really don't think the 3.5 PHB really gave you a whole lot more "useful" options for a non-weapon character either - they just made you pay with your "option" slots for things that 4E gives you for free. Of course, 4E does the same thing taking away some of the Cleric's Armor and Shield Proficiencies too. All-in-all it looks like a wash to me.

- Marty Lund

 

[helium3]

Hmm, interesting. So what this means, essentially, is that you could actually dump Charisma too if you liked, and not take those Cha powers (easier for the melee guy of course). I wouldn't want to do that with my build, since I envision the character with good Charisma, but imagine the following build (always choosing powers to avoid Cha or Str based choices):

That's a first level character? How are you getting two scores to 8?

But yeah, there's nothing that says you can't focus on wisdom and ignore strength and charisma.

OR

You could ignore wisdom entirely and focus on strength and charisma as follows:

Dunkelkurk the Not-So-Wise
5th level Dragonborn Cleric of Bahamut

Str 20 (+5), Con 14 (+2), Dex 11 (+0), Int 10 (+0), Wis 8 (+1), Cha 16 (+3)
Hit Points: 45, Healing Surges: 9, Second Wind: 13
Normal Vision, Passive Insight 16, Passive Perception 11, Initiative +2
AC: 21, Fort: 18, Reflex: 13, Will: 18
Resist: Fire 5, Necrotic 5, Poison 5
Skills: Religion +7, Heal +6, Insight +6, Diplomacy +10
Feats: Weapon Focus (mace), Armor Proficiency (scale), Shield Proficiency (light)
Equipment: Blackiron Scale +1, Mace +2, Amulet of Health +1, Light Bashing Shield, Potion of Healing (2), Holy Symbol, 50 gp.

Channel Divinity:

Divine Fortune (+1 bonus to next attack or saving throw before end of your next turn)
Turn Undead (+1 vs. Will, 2d10-1 & push 6)
Healing Word (Healing Surge + 1d6 -1)

At Will:

Priest's Shield (+11 vs. AC, 1d8+8 damage (+2d6 with crit) and you and adjacent ally gain a +1 power bonus to AC until the end of your next turn)
Righteous Brand (+11 vs. AC, 1d8+8 damage (+2d6 with crit) and one ally within 5 squares gains a +5 power bonus to melee attack rolls against target until the end of your next turn)

Encounter:

Dragon Breath (Racial, Close blast 3, +13 vs. Reflex, 1d6+2 cold damage)
Wrathful Thunder (Level 1, +11 vs. AC, 1d8+8 thunder damage (+2d6 with crit) and target is dazed until the end of your next turn)
Split The Sky (Level 3, +11 vs. AC, 1d8+8 thunder damage (+2d6 with crit) and push the target 2 squares and knock it prone)
Divine Aid (Utility Level 2, you or one ally makes a saving throw with a +3 bonus)

Daily:

Avenging Flame (Level 1, +11 vs. AC, Hit: 2d8+8 damage (+2d6 with crit) and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends), Miss: Half damage and no ongoing fire, Special: If the target attacks on its turn it can't attempt a saving throw against the ongoing damage.)
Consecrated Ground (Level 5, Close Burst 1, Creates a zone of sanctified ground that lasts until the end of your next turn. As a move action you can move the origin 3 squares. Enemies that start their turn in the zone take 1d6+3 radiant damage. You an allies who are bloodied and start their turns in the zone regain 3 hit points.)
Light Bashing Shield (Item, when you hit with a melee attack you may push the enemy 1d4 squares after applying the attack's effect.)

 

[Cadfan]

Random replies to people:

1. Standing up from prone provokes an Opportunity Attack now, I believe. That's in favor of Command, because in a way knocking someone prone is the same as granting a free basic attack to everyone nearby. Not that I'm bashing Daunting Light, mind you, its also good.

2. When calculating the advantage of a to hit bonus, what really matters is expected damage output after compared to before. Expected damage output is [chance of hitting] times [average damage per hit]. So, [chance of hitting after bonus] x [average damage per hit] divided by [chance of hitting before bonus] x [average damage to hit] simplifies out to [chance of hitting after] x [chance of hitting before]. For an increase of +5%, you essentially get [X+.05]/X. This means that a .05 boost to chance to hit increases your damage by more than .05, always.

3. Looking at Helium3's list, I wouldn't necessarily dump Cha. But I might drop it to a 13, and boost it at level 4. It all depends on just how good those powers which grant extra bonuses from Cha turn out to be.

4. I'm noticing that the biggest difference between people who find the feat list constraining and people who do not, is whether they find feats like Improved Initiative, Toughness, and Skill Training to be worthless. Its the PHB, by its nature the feats in it will contain a significant amount of generic choices, especially at the heroic tier. That doesn't make them worthless. In fact, I kind of appreciate it a bit- I like the idea of heroic tier letting you take the time to invest in basic feats, without worrying that you're going to gimp your character. Near the end of 3e, there were so many must-have combat-power boosting feats that even if a feat like Skill Training: Stealth had existed, it would have been very difficult to justify taking it. The game may end up that way in the longterm, but I like playing in a game where taking Quickdraw because your character likes to throw a dagger in the first round of the fight is a worthwhile idea.

 

[mlund]

1. Standing up from prone provokes an Opportunity Attack now, I believe.

No, it does not. Each type of Action explicitly states whether or not it provokes an Opportunity Attack when you take it. Prone does not have that designation like Walk or Squeeze do.

The game may end up that way in the longterm, but I like playing in a game where taking Quickdraw because your character likes to throw a dagger in the first round of the fight is a worthwhile idea.

The Initiative Bonus you get from Quick Draw in 4E isn't too shabby either, nor is conserving your Minor Action with classes and races that use them effectively.

- Marty Lund

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, I decide to make an actually fair comparison of both PHB's Feat options.

- First I eliminated Feats made obsolete by 4th Edition giving everyone the benefit - such as Precise Shot and Eschew Materials.

- Then I eliminate Feats that weren't threat-appropriate - like Spell Penetration - since that's what you did with Dodge Giants.

- I removed Mounted Combat / Archery just like you did.

- I also eliminated Feats that weren't level appropriate - like Meta-Magic Feats that make 1st level spells into Level 2+ spells that a 2nd level Cleric couldn't cast, multiple feats, or BAB > +1

- Next I eliminated feats that a character with low Dex, Int, and Str could not access - such as the Power Attack Tree, Dodge Tree, and Combat Expertise Tree.

- I erased Item Creation feats since they've been rolled into Rituals.

- I removed the Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, and Armor Proficiency skills since Clerics start with these for free in 3.5

- Then I removed any feat that granted a benefit only to a melee attack - such as Weapon Focus and Blind Fighting

- Then I removed any feat that grants a non-scaling +2 bonus to two skills - such as Animal Affinity and that other junk no one ever picked.

I was left with the following 19 feats:
Augment Summoning
Combat Casting
Diehard
Endurance
Extra Turning
Great Fortitude
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Point Blank Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Run
Skill Focus
Spell Focus
Toughness
Tower Shield Proficiency
Track

Of the above, I think the following would qualify under your critical criteria as "useless" for your character: Run, Track, Quick Draw, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload, Diehard, Endurance, and Extra Turning.

Tower Shields and Combat Casting seem to be obsolete concepts in 4E.

That leaves us with 8 feats from the PHB that might qualify as marginally useful for a 2nd Level Cleric - 3 of which have become more powerful in 4E and moved to the Paragon Tier (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude).

It leaves you with the same old, same old as 4E: Toughness, Improved Initiative, and Skill Focus along with Augment Summoning (though 2 round duration Summon Monster I seems pretty weak), Point Blank Shot, and Spell Penetration.

So I really don't think the 3.5 PHB really gave you a whole lot more "useful" options for a non-weapon character either - they just made you pay with your "option" slots for things that 4E gives you for free. Of course, 4E does the same thing taking away some of the Cleric's Armor and Shield Proficiencies too. All-in-all it looks like a wash to me.

- Marty Lund

How is that fair at all? You removed feats like Combat Casting and Tower Shield prof just because 4e doesn't have those things any more--that makes absolutely no sense. And then certain feats that Clerics actually take like Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus just vanished off your list with no explanation. And why are you doing this at Level 2? Level 2 isn't a feat level for a Cleric. All the +1 level Metamagics should be in there (you can use them on a cantrip), and since 2 isn't a feat level and your second feat pick is level 3, we should include all +2 Metamagics. Extra Turning and some of the others you listed are actually good feats (The +2 to two skills aren't good, but they're comparable to Skill Focus, which you kept, though they should probably be reduced to count as one feat to be fair).

And remember, you also get fewer feats for your character in 3.5, so your selection is much less constrained.

And even with your incredibly biased (and in some cases I think you made a mistake in dropping feats by accident without explanation, like Spell Focus, so fixing for that) analysis, you've come up with more choices for the character (and fewer picks you have to make). The number of actual choices out there when you include them fairly is staggering compared to 4e. By my harshest standards (and I can be pretty harsh on the 3.5 feats after all these years seeing them), there's still at least 16 feats I might take with my 3rd-level Cleric feat selection.

 

[Cadfan]

Tower Shields and Combat Casting seem to be obsolete concepts in 4E.

I only have the short form of the feats, but unless there's more to Combat Mobility than we've seen, it grants +2 v all opportunity attacks, not just those caused by movement. So it stands in for Combat Casting after a fashion.

 

[Victim]

Standing up from prone does not provoke as per the descriptions of both OA and the Stand Up action.

 

[Rystil Arden]

4. I'm noticing that the biggest difference between people who find the feat list constraining and people who do not, is whether they find feats like Improved Initiative, Toughness, and Skill Training to be worthless. Its the PHB, by its nature the feats in it will contain a significant amount of generic choices, especially at the heroic tier. That doesn't make them worthless. In fact, I kind of appreciate it a bit- I like the idea of heroic tier letting you take the time to invest in basic feats, without worrying that you're going to gimp your character. Near the end of 3e, there were so many must-have combat-power boosting feats that even if a feat like Skill Training: Stealth had existed, it would have been very difficult to justify taking it. The game may end up that way in the longterm, but I like playing in a game where taking Quickdraw because your character likes to throw a dagger in the first round of the fight is a worthwhile idea.

It's a bit of hyperbole to say that I call them "worthless". A better way to put it is generic and constraining. All of those feats clearly do have a value. After all, I took one at first level over the houseruled Dark Fury. I would be happy to take maybe 1 or 2 heroic feats from that list (though I personally don't need Toughness as much as these other proposed Cleric builds because Jyrantha has relatively-high Con--your Elf, on the other hand, would do well to take it, since he'd still be below Jyrantha's HP afterwards), but taking all 6 (or even 3 or 4 out of 6) is...boring and eventually can get flavourless. I mean, there's bound to be 1 or 2 in there that fit your concept. Definitely take those! Like to Quick Draw? Absolutely, grab that. And I wanted good Bluff, so I took essentially a Skill Training (by multiclassing Warlock). But if your feat choice list is Toughness, Improved Init, and skill feats, you're going to run out of ones that fit in flavourwise pretty quickly.

 

[Zurai]

4. I'm noticing that the biggest difference between people who find the feat list constraining and people who do not, is whether they find feats like Improved Initiative, Toughness, and Skill Training to be worthless. Its the PHB, by its nature the feats in it will contain a significant amount of generic choices, especially at the heroic tier. That doesn't make them worthless. In fact, I kind of appreciate it a bit- I like the idea of heroic tier letting you take the time to invest in basic feats, without worrying that you're going to gimp your character. Near the end of 3e, there were so many must-have combat-power boosting feats that even if a feat like Skill Training: Stealth had existed, it would have been very difficult to justify taking it. The game may end up that way in the longterm, but I like playing in a game where taking Quickdraw because your character likes to throw a dagger in the first round of the fight is a worthwhile idea.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. I never said the generic feats were worthless - quite the opposite, I said you had little choice but to take them if you were skipping the worthless feats!

My problem is that they're boring and flavorless. It's the same reason that I dislike GalCiv - all the techs are just raw, boring statistics. +5% here, +10% there, +2 influence over there. No flavor to them at all. No special effects. Just gradual increases of stuff you already have.

In short, there's nothing heroic, paragon-ic, or epic about the generic feats. They're just ... meh. Useful, but meh.