D&D 4E 4e, Non-Martial Characters, and Limited Feat Choices

[Cadfan]

IAs for the armoured wizard, just wear the plate armour and take the -2 AC penalty for non-proficiency. The 3 or 4 feats for +2 AC isn't worth it even with the current weak feat selection.

That gets you a 16 AC. If you wore leather armor and had an Intelligence score of 18, you could get a 16 AC.

I don't know why people are hung up on wizards in heavy armor, when a wizard in light armor is so darn easy and just as good.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, we've certainly got less to work with in a single PHB for 4th Edition than we did with 2 PHBs and over 2-dozen Splat-books in 3.5

This is a strawman. No one in this thread has ever tried to compare the choice to anything other than the choice of the 3e PH only, with no extra books. Why do people seem to always try to use this strawman in this forum? It's insulting to the other posters in this thread who are trying to make fair comparisons. And 4e is severely lacking in feat choice even with a fair comparison of only PH to PH.

What can I say? You probably enjoy better durability, skill checks, and effects of certain powers than a 13,14,10,12,18,14 Dwarf Cleric would, but he or she would have less constrained choices for feats. Actions have consequences.

As we've hashed out already several times, the build you suggest gets two additional available feats that it might want to take--Light Shield Proficiency and Scale Proficiency. And in my case, in the adventure we found an awesome magic Chainmail, so for now, Scale Proficiency wouldn't be an option anyway.

This is hardly a huge difference in availability, and it's still extremely constraining. There's no need to be making guesses like "I think you may experience more "constrained choices"" about the effects of the choice to have low Strength--we can look at the list of feats and see exactly what those effects are, after all, right? There are exactly two useful feats opened up by switching to the build you suggest over the build I chose.

 

[helium3]

I had initially thought Cadfan had them and you did not. Shows what I can divine over the internet

Well, take a look at those powers then. I'm 99% sure that memory serves me on everything I said so far.

Hah hah. Yeah. I think the regulars here tend to misunderestimate me.

So here's the break down for the cleric class:

Total Powers - 57 (not counting utility, channel divinity, paragon or epic powers)

Wisdom vs. Defense powers - 27
Wisdom vs. AC powers - 2
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 25
Strength provides additional benefit - 0
Charisma provides additional benefit - 9

Strength vs. Defense powers - 7
Strength vs. AC powers - 18
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 0
Strength provides additional benefit - 25
Charisma provides additional benefit - 3

Attack not made -3
Strength provides additional benefit - 0
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 1
Charisma provides additional benefit - 2

Then I did the utility powers just for fun:

Utility Powers - 22
Strength provides additional benefit - 0
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 0
Charisma provides additional benefit - 3

 

[Diirk]

You're measuring something different than what I and the person I was responding to were. The chance to hit is not increased by 15%. The number of hits might be. Number of hits != chance to hit. When you have a variable range of 20, +1 to the range is a +5% chance to hit. There's no other way to interpret it in the same framework. +1 = +5%.

Well, its just different ways of representing it. When you say 5% to hit, what you mean is that your % chance to hit is changed by 5 (eg 30% to 35%). What he says is that your % chance to hit is changed by 15% (eg 30% to 35%)

 

[Rystil Arden]

It doesn't take away their entire turn, but it dazes them and knocks them prone, or over a cliff. That's a fair amount of inconvenience, if used wisely, and by wisely I mean "with a rogue in melee reach of the enemy." I know it doesn't do much against minions, but that's what Divine Glow is for. And I know it can miss, but so can any attack.

My intention is mix attacks which target Reflex and attacks which target Will. I'll probably eventually switch Command out for something else, but a per encounter ability to screw over an enemy by causing him to grant combat advantage to all of my allies, or moving him to a position he doesn't want to be in, or whatever it happens to be, is worth the slot it takes up. Maybe upon reading the PHB I'll find a level 3 encounter power that I like even more, but at the moment, it looks usable. Divine Glow for groups, Command for smaller numbers of foes, or for the one big guy in a mob of little guys.

If you're looking for combat advantage, Daunting Light (another encounter choice at the same level) gives that Combat Advantage to your ally and also does 2d10+Wis. It seems generally much better for an encounter ability (if you scaled both of them up and made them per day, then Command would be more enticing, but as is, you will not want to use it every encounter).

I also have Divine Glow, so the builds look quite similar. Basically, once Divine Glow is over, it's just Lance of Faith over and over (or Sacred Flame rarely). Adding Daunting Light will be a big boost in effectiveness every encounter that Command would not. That said, I'm playing in a smaller-than-normal-size group, which makes Command much much worse (since you give up a relatively higher percentage of your party's actions for Command this way). If you're in a bigger-than-usual group, I could see Command becoming more useful sometimes.

As for getting to target the Will defense, I've been trying to get something that does, but ironically, the meleer can target Will more easily. I believe the first useful power that targets Will comes at level 7 (if you must include Command, then the second--I think we can both agree that Cause Fear is simply awful compared to Divine Glow).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hah hah. Yeah. I think the regulars here tend to misunderestimate me.

So here's the break down for the cleric class:

Total Powers - 57 (not counting utility, channel divinity, paragon or epic powers)

Wisdom vs. Defense powers - 27
Wisdom vs. AC powers - 2
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 25
Strength provides additional benefit - 0
Charisma provides additional benefit - 9

Strength vs. Defense powers - 7
Strength vs. AC powers - 18
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 0
Strength provides additional benefit - 25
Charisma provides additional benefit - 3

Attack not made -3
Strength provides additional benefit - 0
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 1
Charisma provides additional benefit - 2

Then I did the utility powers just for fun:

Utility Powers - 22
Strength provides additional benefit - 0
Wisdom provides additional benefit - 0
Charisma provides additional benefit - 3

Hmm, interesting. So what this means, essentially, is that you could actually dump Charisma too if you liked, and not take those Cha powers (easier for the melee guy of course). I wouldn't want to do that with my build, since I envision the character with good Charisma, but imagine the following build (always choosing powers to avoid Cha or Str based choices):

Str 8
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 20
Cha 8

It would focus on Int and Wis skills for rituals and knowledges and has very reasonable defenses across the board, plus insane Wis boosts to Wis powers.

 

[Blackbrrd]

You're measuring something different than what I and the person I was responding to were. The chance to hit is not increased by 15%. The number of hits might be. Number of hits != chance to hit. When you have a variable range of 20, +1 to the range is a +5% chance to hit. There's no other way to interpret it in the same framework. +1 = +5%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent#Percent_increase_and_decrease

If an interest rate rises from 10% to 15%, for example, it is typical to say, "The interest rate increased by 5%" — rather than by 50%, which would be correct when measured as a percentage of the initial rate (i.e., from 0.10 to 0.15 is an increase of 50%). Such ambiguity can be avoided by using the term "percentage points". In the previous example, the interest rate "increased by 5 percentage points" from 10% to 15%. If the rate then drops by 5 percentage points, it will return to the initial rate of 10%, as expected.

Going from 30% chance to-hit to 35% chance to hit is an increase of 5 percentage points. Saying that is an increase of 5% is unclear.

Some people may then think that +1 to hit increases your damage output by 5% and compare it to something that increases damage per hit by 5% and think that they are equal. Which is not true.

 

[Mirtek]

You're measuring something different than what I and the person I was responding to were. The chance to hit is not increased by 15%.

No, the chance to hit is increased by XX%.

The number of hits might be. Number of hits != chance to hit.

The number of hits is a function of the chance to hit

When you have a variable range of 20, +1 to the range is a +5% chance to hit.

A +1 is an increase by 5 percentage points, which is different from an increase by 5 percent

There's no other way to interpret it in the same framework. +1 = +5%.

You're confusing percentage points with percentages. They're different.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Ninja'd you Mirtek

 

[Mirtek]

Ninja'd you Mirtek

That's only because my connection is at the moment really bad.


Happened before and now it's happening again. Don't know why but I need a minute for a new window to load when I click on reply or quote or open a new site/thread.