D&D 4E 4E PrRC ~v2.7~ FINAL UPDATE May 29.08

[MindWanderer]

Comments?

It's pointless to use all 5 KotS characters for this, because they all use the same array.

I also note that the tiefling warlord doesn't work by this system (24 points). In fact, it's impossible to create a character using this system that doesn't have at least one 9 or 11 (pre-racial mods). Since we have 8 different stat arrays available to us, and only 5 of them work with this method (no better than the 3e point buy system), I don't buy it.

Are we 100% sure that it's a 25-point buy? I know that's what thalmin reported, but 22 works perfectly on all 8 arrays using Totoro's system (given than 5 stats start at 10 instead of 8).

 

[splotch]

MindWanderer- You raise an interesting point. While we are all eternally grateful to Thalmin for sharing with us what he saw when he previewed the PHB, there are some clear inconsistencies between his report and what we have observed in the pre-gens. For instance, he noted that the default array in the players handbook ranged from "16 to 9" while the array used for the KotS published material ranges from 16 to 10. If we are going to accept this difference as an error in his memory then we have to be willing to accept an actual 22 point buy rather than a reported 25 point buy as another error in his memory. You cite 8 character sheets that work out with a 22 point buy using totoro's point buy cost and starting scores of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10 and 10. I'm not sure which character sheets you are refering to, there are the 6 DDXP pre-gens, 1 online KotS pre-gen and the 5 published KotS pre-gen. Which pre-gens have you verified it with? I would argue that if it is valid, it should even work with the 5 published KotS pre-gens because even if they use the array approach, which I think they do, WotC would have chosen an array that was consistent with the point-buy system since according to Thalmin they offer them as alternatives in the players handbook.

 

[MindWanderer]

You cite 8 character sheets that work out with a 22 point buy using totoro's point buy cost and starting scores of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10 and 10. I'm not sure which character sheets you are refering to, there are the 6 DDXP pre-gens, 1 online KotS pre-gen and the 5 published KotS pre-gen. Which pre-gens have you verified it with?

The same ones. I didn't say 8 character sheets, I said 8 arrays. Since all 5 KotS character sheets use the exact same array, I'm only counting them once total. That gives us 8 unique arrays: 6 from DDXP, 1 from KotS, and one from the KotS bonus tiefling warlord.

 

[splotch]

Thanks for the clarification, and thanks for doing all the math on the character sheets. In that case it is indeed very strong evidence for a 22 point buy using Totoro's point buy costs rather than a 25 point buy using daredevi1's point buy costs. I remember a post from someone on Thalmin's thread asking him if he might have remembered the point buy total incorrectly, but I don't think he ever responded to it. I was excited when someone came up with a 25 point buy that worked for the KotS array and for 4 of the DDXP pre-gens. The fact that it didn't work for Kathra and Erais didn't worry me too much because there had always been chatter on the threads about errors in the DDXP pregens. However, I got a little more worried when I tried the 25 point buy on the Tiefling Warlord this afternoon and it came out to 24 as well.

 

[splotch]

If people are going to use Totoro's point buy with 22 points and starting numbers of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 I suggest the point buy system be rewritten fom how it is currently in the PrRC. It is currently written
8 costs 0
9 costs 1
10 costs 2
11 costs 3
12 costs 4
13 costs 5
14 costs 7
15 costs 9
16 costs 11
17 costs 14
18 costs 18
However, this can either make it difficult to figure out the cost of going from 10 up to a higher number (it is the difference between the cost of 10 and the cost of the higher number) or can lead people to mistakenly assume that the cost of going 6 points up from 10 is the same as going 6 points up from 8 on this chart when it is not (10-16 costs 9, 8-14 costs 7). I would suggest instead writing the cost of going up from 10 in terms of the how many points you have to spend to get a particular increase in ability score. For instance:
1=1
2=2
3=3
4=5
5=7
6=9
7=12
8=16
These same costs can be applied to buying up from 8 points as far as we know from the pre-gens because no pre-gen has moved their 8 up any higher than 10 and the cost of moving 8 to 10 on Totoro's original point buy table is the same as the cost of moving from 10 to 12 (2 points). I am going to guess that if the PHB has this system, they use a table like the one I have just suggested becaue it is mathematically easier to use. You don't have to subtract the cost of 10 (2) from the cost of the ability score you want to get to to figure out how many points you need to spend, you just figure out how many points you want to go above 10 or 8 and look at the table to see the cost. Admittedly it is a minor difference, but I'm interested to see what people think.

 

[splotch]

I feel a little foolish responding to myself once again on this thread, but on another thread http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=998099&page=5
totoro has pointed out the simple mathematical reality that his point buy costs work for a 22 point buy if you have 5 10s and one 8 as starting scores, because he derived his point costs assuming 6 8s as starting scores, and so you are simply spending 10 of the 32 points in his original point buy system to take 5 8s up to 10s (2 points each) leaving you with 22 to spend. This suggests to me that while I can propose a table that helps people use what we think is the new 4.0 starting point scores (5 10s and one 8), it really would have been much simpler and more elegant for WotC to have every ability score start at the same base score and then have a table like Totoro's. What is the advantage of creating a system in which you tell people they should choose one ability score to start at 8 and the rest at 10? Is it a way to make sure that players don't make the mistake of maxing out two ability scores, leaving the rest at 8 with -1 penalties? We know WotC doesn't want us to have to subtract based on the way they have set up the math for the game. Is this just another example of their anti-subtraction campaign? If so why not have all scores start at 10 and use a 20 point buy with Totoro's point buy costs? Then you guarantee no subtraction and the numbers are easy to remember. The downside is that you limit the range of ability score values possible, but not by too much compared to starting with 5 10's and 1 8 as you just have two less points to distribute. Either option is much more limited in terms of ability score range than a 32 point totoro buy starting at all 8s. It just seems like a strange compromise for WotC to decide: "you can have one negative modifier if you want to but that is all, no more negative modifiers for you."

 

[Verys Arkon]

I don't see the logic behind the 5 10's and an 8 either. I suppose Totoro's method is still the most reliable, especially since the new Tiefling Warlord comes out to 24 with Daredevi1's method. I think that this late in the game there isn't enough evidence to add a "Method C" unless it works for all the pregens we've seen, and so far Totoro's is the only one.

 

[Saben]

Verys, I don't have a copy of KotS yet, but I'm under the impression that the KotS pre-gen character powers only list the powers with modifiers already included. Where possible would you be able to note the ACTUAL damage/ to hit of each ability (where known) without modifiers included in addition to the "See KotS" note?

I'm trying to build custom characters for my gaming group based off the pregens but it's tricky to work out what the powers should do when used by another character with different stats as opposed to the pregens.

 

[Verys Arkon]

Verys, I don't have a copy of KotS yet, but I'm under the impression that the KotS pre-gen character powers only list the powers with modifiers already included. Where possible would you be able to note the ACTUAL damage/ to hit of each ability (where known) without modifiers included in addition to the "See KotS" note?

I'm trying to build custom characters for my gaming group based off the pregens but it's tricky to work out what the powers should do when used by another character with different stats as opposed to the pregens.

Unfortunately, I've already committed to not including information from KotS, so I can't help you directly (though I understand your pain!). Zinger2099 has a list of all the known powers broken down in their generic form that I think you will find useful.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1031131

 

[Saben]

Ahh, that works fine

Thanks.