D&D 4E 4E: Saving throws...

[RigaMortus2]

Quote from interview with Bruce Cordell

Q: Will there be saving throws? Will they work the same way?
A: "Saving throws will look more like a new thing."

I personally thought Saving Throws were very well done in 3E. There wasn't anything broken or confusing about them. It is a much better mechanic than having 7 different saving throws as in 2E (seriously, does your body care if the fireball that hit you came from a Wizard's fingertips or his staff???).

So I am wondering why they are revamping or making Saving Throws "more like a new thing"? Why fix it if it ain't broken?

They've mentioned that AC is in. So to me, it doesn't seem like they are folding AC in with Saves, as they did with Saga. So why change a good thing?

 

[Aloïsius]

They've mentioned that AC is in. So to me, it doesn't seem like they are folding AC in with Saves, as they did with Saga. So why change a good thing?

They are folding saves with AC

Why change it ? Because when there are more monsters per encounters, and when you want to streamlined the rules, then you need to have only one roll if you throw a fireball upon an orc squad.

 

[RigaMortus2]

They are folding saves with AC

I have yet to see a quote from a WotC person confirming this. Have a link by chance?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I can't see why they don't simply do the same thing that they did with Saga Edition. It makes so much sense, and not only for the reason that Aloïsius pointed out. It makes sense that your reflex to get out of the way is related directly to your AC.

 

[Stalker0]

My guess is this:

1) Saves will likely scale more gradually, similar to SAGA's bonus per level with class bonus boost.

2) Offense rolls. Saves are static, and the offender rolls. This has some drawbacks, but it really speeds things up when dealing with groups of creatures.

3) Charisma to will saves. With wisdom being a new "power" stat, charisma may take on the mantle of willpower.

Other than that, I doubt they will change them too much. The three saves will likely be there.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I have a problem with rolling to set save DCs, though; what if you have an effect that "de-buffs" multiple opponents?

For instance, while playtesting Mindscapes (a psionics supplement), I had a party of four PCs (psion, cleric, rogue, fighter) face off against a mind flayer and a few allies. We were supposed to roll to set the save DC of Mind Blast, so I did so.

The mind flayer rolled the highest initiative and so went first. It mind blasted the whole party (they weren't expecting a fight and were clustered together) and rolled a natural 20 to set the save DC. Only the cleric passed, by the minimum amount necessary... by rolling a natural 15 on his Will save. (Clerics and druids generally end up with the highest possible Will saves.) The psion failed his save, and the other tow PCs never had a chance... the rest of the party was screwed. Only by using a strange non-core ability was the party able to literally reset the whole round (a time-altering psionic power that I was playtesting), otherwise they would have been wiped out.

On the other hand, it will certainly save on time; just one roll.

I know 4e is supposed to tone down "save-or-suffer" effects but I doubt they'll be toned down to that extent. What is the use of Mind Blast if it just inflicts a few penalties?

 

[Sammael]

They may be keeping the term "Armor Class," but, for all we know, it may be a completely different thing. Like, say, the new term for Damage Reduction...

It would make sense to have SAGA Defenses instead of saves, but I don't think they went far enough. I think armor should carry a penalty on the Reflex Defense, but provide Damage Reduction.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

My issue with saves in 3.5 is that the good saves are too good - and you rarely fail them, but the bad saves are too bad, and its very tough to make any of them. I'm not sure what the solution is - does Saga solve this issue?

 

[Nikosandros]

I don't mind the switching of saves to defenses in SAGA and I really like the more balanced increase: I agree that the difference between good and bad saves is excessive in 3e.

However, I would prefer AC to be kept separate from reflex defense.

 

[Sammael]

In Saga, all Defenses are equal to 10 + character level + relevant ability modifier. Some classes provide additional bonuses (e.g. Jedi gain +1 to all three Defense scores at first level, while nobles get +1 Ref and +2 Will).

This system makes sense now that spell levels follow the same progression as character levels.