D&D 4E 4E: Saving throws...

[kenobi65]

My issue with saves in 3.5 is that the good saves are too good - and you rarely fail them, but the bad saves are too bad, and its very tough to make any of them. I'm not sure what the solution is - does Saga solve this issue?

Pretty much.

The SW Saga formulae for Defenses are:

Reflex Defense: 10 + (heroic level or armor bonus) + Dex modifier + class bonus + natural armor bonus + size modifier

Fortitude Defense: 10 + heroic level + Con modifier + class bonus + equipment bonus

Will Defense: 10 + heroic level + Wisdom modifier + class bonus

A few explanations:
"Heroic level" is your total level in all heroic classes; for most PCs, heroic level is going to equal character level.

Class bonuses are not huge, and they're one-time bonuses. Most classes give a +2 class bonus to one defense type, and a +1 bonus to a second (Jedi get a +1 bonus to all three defenses). If you multi-class, and both of your classes give a bonus to a particular defense, they don't stack (you get the higher of the two).

SW d20 has always de-emphasized armor for higher-level PCs. You see that here, where armor is mostly good for low-level guys. (Also, some armor can help you with Fort defense, which is the "equipment bonus" up there.)

So, what you see is:
- The most significant driver of any "gaps" between your "good" and "bad" defenses will be your ability scores
- The biggest driver of increases in defenses is character level.

 

[Sammael]

If I were to design the game, I'd personally cut the defenses down to 1/2 character level, and change the spell saves to depend on some other parameter - not spell level. But I'd still give the same base save to all classes, with limited class bonuses at 1st level.

 

[Atlatl Jones]

I really like the static saving throw "defenses" from Saga, and think that in Star Wars making "AC" an aspect of reflex defense makes a lot of sense. I think AC and reflex defense should be different in D&D though. In star wars, reflex saves aren't used much, only explosives and autofire attacks. But in D&D, there are tons of things that use reflex saves, from dozens of different kinds of spells, traps, and monster attacks.

 

[hong]

It comes down to: should wearing full plate help you against a fireball or dragon breath? If you think so, then equating AC and Ref won't be a problem. If you think not, then AC and Ref should remain separate.

 

[Sammael]

It comes down to: should wearing full plate help you against a fireball or dragon breath?

Yup. It will help cook you faster.

 

[Lord Zack]

It comes down to: should wearing full plate help you against a fireball or dragon breath? If you think so, then equating AC and Ref won't be a problem. If you think not, then AC and Ref should remain separate.

Well that's easy, aganist an area attack or some such you should lose you're armor bonus. I don't think it's that way in Saga though, which is stupid.

 

[Aloïsius]

Pretty much.

The SW Saga formulae for Defenses are:

Reflex Defense: 10 + (heroic level or armor bonus) + Dex modifier + class bonus + natural armor bonus + size modifier

That's probably what bothers me : I don't see why natural armor and small size could help you avoid a fireball or a web spell.

 

[Dragonblade]

I did read somewhere that WotC confirmed "flipped" saves as defenses just like in Saga. But they will have AC also and it sounds like it will be separate from your Reflex defense which differs from Saga.

I like flipped saves a lot. It would make combat go much faster, since a player casting a fireball for example, would just roll their magic attack roll and the DM could compare it to the Reflex Defense for all the opponents in range. Much faster than rolling for each monster or NPC.

"Spell level" as we now know it will no longer exist. WotC people have said that "power level" of magic now corresponds with character level (although multiclassing may affect this). So likely, you will have a caster level bonus that will act as your magical attack bonus.

WotC also said there will be "+6" wands. This implies to me at least that wands will boost a magical attack roll and makes them much more Harry Potter style. Given that all classes will now have "at-will" magical attacks it makes sense that charged magic items are no longer needed in the game.

 

[Sammael]

Well, charged magic items can still serve to diversify the spellcasters' daily options, but they will likely resemble runestaffs from Magic Item Compendium more than regular 3.x wands and staffs.

 

[Aloïsius]

WotC also said there will be "+6" wands. This implies to me at least that wands will boost a magical attack roll and makes them much more Harry Potter style. Given that all classes will now have "at-will" magical attacks it makes sense that charged magic items are no longer needed in the game.

I hope wands will still be keyed to a single spell... If they add their bonus to all the spells you cast, they will be such a no-brainer.
And I fear some wizards will have a dozen wands with them. Unless there is another "Poter-like" mechanism that force you to attune with only one wand.