D&D 4E 4E suggestion - remove save or die in favour of two types of hitpoints

[Gort]

Not sure if this has been suggested, but I really hate save-or-die spells as they are in 3.5 ed. It's really anticlimactic when a player or big monster gets zapped dead in the first round just because of a single dice roll. It always feels better to me when the fight lasts a few rounds, the baddie and the players get to use their cool abilities, and finally the victor emerges triumphant. Save-or-die spells just remove the fight, pretty much. And it's not just the save-or-die spells that are the problem, there are plenty of spells that are save-or-you're-screwed, like tashas hideous laughter, or even hold person - it's not like any baddie lasts long once they're unable to act.

So, with that established, I'd like to put forward a suggestion for fixing the situation - give everyone two sets of hitpoints - physical and mental. Base them on constitution and wisdom. Then you have spell that affect you physically like destruction do damage - large amounts, but not just save-or-die, and not resisted by a save. Likewise for spells that affect you mentally, such as hold person. They will have to wear through your mental hitpoints before they can affect you. When either set of hitpoints is exhausted, the spell affects you as though you'd failed a save in the original version. So a flesh-to-stone spell would do physical damage to you as it turns bits of you to stone, but it would only actually turn you to stone once you hit 0 hitpoints. Likewise a domination spell would do mental damage until you hit 0, at which point the caster will have destroyed your will and you're at his mercy.

Any thoughts? Even if you don't like my suggestion, I think we can all agree that save-or-die has gotta go, but that spells like flesh-to-stone and disintegrate are pretty cool, so they need to stay.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There's already ability score damage. If you're saying to replace save or die with spells that do big damage to ability scores, I don't disagree, although I have to wonder how it doesn't amount to the same thing at the end of the day. If I unleash a death spell that does 4d6 Constitution damage, how is that any different than "save or die?"

 

[Mouseferatu]

If I unleash a death spell that does 4d6 Constitution damage, how is that any different than "save or die?"

4d6 Con may kill, but it may not. All depends on what the result is.

Assuming it still also allows a save (or rather, "an attack roll against the target's Fortitude defense"), I find it a lot more reasonable. It's death by two unlucky die rolls, not by one alone. Doesn't feel nearly as arbitrary or frustrating.

 

[Gort]

There's already ability score damage. If you're saying to replace save or die with spells that do big damage to ability scores

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying physical spells do physical hitpoint damage before they massively debilitate you, and only debilitate you once you hit 0 physical hitpoints.

Likewise a dominate spell will do mental hitpoint damage before it gets you, and only gets you when you hit 0.

 

[A'koss]

About 3 years ago I tinkered with a HR I called Resolve Points (I remember posting it here too) that did very much what Gort is suggesting.

It's essentially like HP, but for Will Save effects, withstanding interrogation, intimidation, serious injury, etc. Instead of an all-or-nothing Will Save effect, fear for example, such a power would inflict Resolve damage (a 1st level charm spell might inflict 1d6 RP damage). Just like you can get physically worn down by various physical damage, you can get mentally worn down by hold spells, fear, charms, domination, taking severe damage, etc. If your Resolve Points reached 0, whatever power brought it to that point takes effect (you're finally charmed, dominated, fleeing in fear, break under torture, etc.). Resolve could also be used by a character to focus on certain tasks, you get the picture.

I always thought it was an interesting idea but one you'd have to design from the ground up to really take advantage of it.

 

[Gort]

Resolve Points

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. But your name is way cooler.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

About 3 years ago I tinkered with a HR I called Resolve Points (I remember posting it here too) that did very much what Gort is suggesting.

It's essentially like HP, but for Will Save effects, withstanding interrogation, intimidation, serious injury, etc. Instead of an all-or-nothing Will Save effect, fear for example, such a power would inflict Resolve damage (a 1st level charm spell might inflict 1d6 RP damage). Just like you can get physically worn down by various physical damage, you can get mentally worn down by hold spells, fear, charms, domination, taking severe damage, etc. If your Resolve Points reached 0, whatever power brought it to that point takes effect (you're finally charmed, dominated, fleeing in fear, break under torture, etc.). Resolve could also be used by a character to focus on certain tasks, you get the picture.

I always thought it was an interesting idea but one you'd have to design from the ground up to really take advantage of it.

Yes, that indeed sounds like a very nice idea.

A "quick fix" for many save or die might be:
If a character subject to a Save or Die effect has less than x/hp per caster level, he dies on a failed save. Otherwise, he just takes y points of damage (where y<= x). This works for death effects and disintegrate-like effects, but it works less well for spells like Charm Person or Confusion. (Though the Power Word spells don't care about that, either).

 

[mmadsen]

So, with that established, I'd like to put forward a suggestion for fixing the situation - give everyone two sets of hitpoints - physical and mental.

I have a simpler solution: divorce hit points from toughness entirely and admit that they're a meta-game concept, like action points, offering plot-protection.

 

[sukael]

Things might go the route of what I think designers have already outlined (as possible 3e rules) once or twice- a save-or-die actually takes a few rounds, or a cumulative effect, to work completely, and in the meantime you just suffer assorted penalties... and the effect can still be halted by the appropriate magic.