AD&D- Overpowered Magic Items

[Mannahnin]

I suppose I agree, to a point.

There has to be some delineation of objective time duration because rounds also measure movement and duration of effects—everything from spells to clockworks to poison and splash damage.

While a non-fixed arbitrary duration for pure combat exchange would be fine, it’s the other things that are being accounted that make it somewhat difficult to simply ignore.

More or less. Remember that B/X, despite using 10 second rounds, rounds up the duration of a combat to 1 Turn for game play purposes, allowing it to slot conveniently into the dungeon exploration time scale, and abstracting time spent getting everyone's breath back, bandaging, adjusting armor, looting the bodies, etc.

 

[Gus L]

There has to be some delineation of objective time duration because rounds also measure movement and duration of effects—everything from spells to clockworks to poison and splash damage.

While a non-fixed arbitrary duration for pure combat exchange would be fine, it’s the other things that are being accounted that make it somewhat difficult to simply ignore.

I don't see these as needing to be measured in real life units of time. In RPGs one does not manage "clocks" by looking at a clock, one does so by counting some sort of turn. The acid burns for 1D6+1 rounds, the spell's duration is 6 turns etc... Even when (as in AD&D) these things are measured in minutes per the rulebook, using them requires translating those minutes into Turns or Rounds. The actual game time (barring extremely rare "real-time" mechanics such as the falling ceiling trap in Tomb of Horrors) is always measured in some unit that is independent of the real world clock.

It may take a little clarifying but generally I find that making it clear that everything is tied to turns and rounds (and watches for wilderness travel/sessions for downtime) makes the choices very obvious to players. Gone is any discussion of how many days or minutes something will take because there's intentionally not a real world analogue, there's no fiddling around with that translation from fiction to game. Sure one still can say things like "it's been a few minutes" or "hours pass while you wait" and maybe mark off a few turns (or even 6 turns an hour), but the focus is on the unit of game action rather then the time.

 

[howandwhy99]

OD&D required fatigue rules for combat. AD&D didn't include them, but did sneak the same into movement rates.

-1 cumulative To Hit penalty for every round after:
3 rounds combat
5 rounds combat movement
4 of any combination

Imagine on rounds 4 and 5 taking penalties and wondering if you should run? Or step back and recover for a round.

This can be extrapolated from. Like no spellcasting more than 3 rds in a row due to fatigue.

 

[Gus L]

OD&D required fatigue rules for combat. AD&D didn't include them, but did sneak the same into movement rates.

Where are these OD&D fatigue rules? I'm curious?

 

[howandwhy99]

Where are these OD&D fatigue rules? I'm curious?

See Chainmail

Page 8. They are a bit more complicated with charging rules, but you can use fatigue out of combat too.

 

[Gus L]

See Chainmail

Page 8. They are a bit more complicated with charging rules, but you can use fatigue out of combat too.

So my edition of Chainmail has these fatigue rules on Page 11 ... for mass combat. They are not found in the man to man rules and no reference is made to them in the D&D alternate combat system or any subsequent edition. I would note that the effects are profoundly different in the chainmail mass combat system. This rule effects morale (super important here and meaning that combat is unlikely to last 3 melee rounds), is non-cumulative, and that it doesn't give you -1 to attack but rather reduces the quality/class of the troops to one lower.

In chainmail I think it would work like this (basically):

10 light foot are fighting 10 heavy foot:

Light foot roll 5d6 dice and only kill 1 heavy foot on every 6.
Heavy foot roll 10d6 dice and kill 1 light foot on every 5 or 6.

If the Heavy Foot are exhausted they will fight as light foot so:

Light Foot roll 10d6 and kill 1 heavy foot on every 6
Heavy Foot roll 10d6 and kill 1 light foot on 6

At the end of the melee round we'd check morale but i won't get into that.

It seems rather distinct from D&D's methods - though of course in OD&D you can always adapt Chainmail, and while I think you are making a cool point and performing exactly the kind of laudable OD&D hermeneutics I love, it doesn't strike me as nearly as simple as a "rules not ported to AD&D" situation. It's an interesting concept and idea, but it would need significant adaption, even to Chainmail based OD&D. It's akin to saying that the fatigue and starvation rules of Wilderness Survival are part of OD&D - at least to me.

 

[howandwhy99]

It's an interesting concept and idea, but it would need significant adaption, even to Chainmail based OD&D. It's akin to saying that the fatigue and starvation rules of Wilderness Survival are part of OD&D - at least to me.

Spot on! Fatigue and starvation (and more!) from Outdoor Survival are part of the D&D rules imnsho. They are listed under necessary components to play. They take from quality game designs and make the game more interesting and fun to play.

There's a thread on DF right now about how a formation battle should work against surrounding loose knit foes. Being able to recognize the formation of units, transfer back and forth between man-to-man and unit warfare, in opposition all on the same table, well, it's invaluable.

 

[Gus L]

Spot on! Fatigue and starvation (and more!) from Outdoor Survival are part of the D&D rules imnsho. They are listed under necessary components to play. They take from quality game designs and make the game more interesting and fun to play.

See I take a less liberal approach there, I tend to view the LBBs as a complete text - that constitutes a minimally playable game (well mostly - with adaption). I also don't enjoy Chainmail's combat system - though it might be different if "parties" were more like warbands ... but then it wouldn't facilitate dungeon crawls well ... choices.

There is of course enough room in old games for all sorts of versions of OD&D - and it's one of those things that I think really defined the OSR, Philotomy-style personal readings of the LBBs with unique ideas on implied ruleset, settings and play style. These projects of reimagining are interesting also because I suppose they are what happened at most tables trying to play the game in the 1970's - at least that's what I get from Strat Review and Alarums & Excursions. One variation that incorporates both Chainmail and Outdoor Survival would be interesting, though I suspect reconciling the OS exhaustion track (and it's adorable comic of the stages of exhaustion/fatigue) with this fatigue system and any expectations of D&D as an adventure game will be tricky.

Likewise I appreciate the effort, as serious overland travel in D&D needs help - typical D&D wilderness is really boring, more like a bus trip (in the US where they other include random fist fights) then a trek across wilderness.

There's a thread on DF right now about how a formation battle should work ...

Ah I would assume such things on ODD74, but I haven't looked at any of those forums in a long time.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

One of my favorite Dragon articles was about using cursed items for positive effects.

The author had started when he found a dagger of venom and kept it. The DM said that the poisoning was Evil, but the player filled the dagger with holy water and would use it against undead - and as he said, it was still a magic weapon.

Cursed armor can still be decorative in your keep. A bag of devouring can be great for clean up at camp. Or, sneaking up on a villain and placing a helm of alignment change or hat of stupidity on them would be game changing.

 

[Gorg]

This wasn't strictly D&D, it was from a 3rd party published book called the DM's book of Nasty Tricks and Misfit Magic.

Of COURSE I had to buy it.

One item was called a belt of oxen strength. it doubled your strength score- and halved your intelligence, lol.

obviously, it fell into the hands of our already intellectually challenged half ogre fighter. My namesake, in fact. His exploits are legendary to this day. Such as grabbing the tail of a black dragon and cracking it like a whip. (Gorg HATED black dragons, thanks to an incident in Dragonlance...) Gorg began his career with an 18/00 Str, and like a 6 intelligence. You do the math... Strong like Ox, dumb like rock! That was our Gorg!

That book has since disappeared into the mists of time...