4e = the Titanic? and other insanity or irony

[kitsune9]

2. I don't need to see a D&D game published by Paizo -- ever. Let Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight Games, Mongoose or some other enitity grab it (if WotC truly no longer wanted it).

Anyhow, happy gaming to all in 2011.

I always wondered what D&D would be like under FFG.

Happy gaming!

 

[Umbran]

This strikes me as being a very disingenuous way of looking at people's reactions to WotC over the last few years.

It is hardly disingenuous to look at the past decade, rather than the past few months.

When they fail to meet stated project goals, that's a cause for concern.

They failed to meet stated goals back with electronic tools in the first days of 3e, and people had similar comments about that then, too.

When the president of the company is replaced, that's a cause for concern.

WotC got a new president in 1999, 2002, 2004, and 2008. They change every few years. If it was a notable risk, then they've shown themselves to be good at dodging the bullet, rather negating that risk.

When they lay people off with semi-regularity, that's a cause for concern.

And folks have noticed that pattern has been there for years, and found it a bit odd when they didn't match their usual layoff pattern this year.

When they cancel multiple products at once, as well as entire product lines, that's a cause for concern.

Companies cancel product lines with regularity - WotC (and TSR before them) has done so with every edition change, for example. Failing to cancel lines that do poorly is a larger cause of concern than canceling them.

My only point here, really is only that there's nothing new to any of this. Maybe WotC is on the ropes. I don't know. What I do know is that the conversation here has demonstrated itself to be a poor indicator of imminent collapse.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

There is one thing your hypothesis is missing:

We are nerds.

And if there is one thing nerds do, it is freak out over everything.

Anyways, my first thought on seeing this thread was "Oh boy this thread again! I guess two threads literally on this exact same subject wasn't yet enough!"

Of course I thought the same thing the thirty times in the past two years threads on 5e cropped up.

And when all the essentials threads cropped up.

And when we saw threads on Paizo's success crop up.

And when the new <setting> book came out.

And when Gamma World came out.

And when we...etc, etc, etc.

Do you see a pattern? Literally since the day 4e came out, this has been happening. People don't freak out over other companies because they are small and close to insignificant compared to the importance of D&D.

 

[hafrogman]

I never see threads on here decrying the latest Paizo blurb, or that Green Ronin is shooting itself in the foot.

I think you'll find this is more because of the same reason nobody writes viruses for Macs. Nobody cares.

Which is not to actually say that nobody cares. In actual fact, there are people who are very passionate about those all those companies (even Apple). But their proportion to the number of people following WotC's business doings is negligible. When WotC shifts, everyone pays attention. People who like 4e pay attention because it affects them, but the people who hate 4e ALSO pay attention because they want to be proven right that 4e was badwrongfun, and WotC made a mistake. And everyone inbetween pays attention too for various reasons.

Compare that to Paizo and Green Ronin, where I don't pay attention to what they do, because it doesn't affect me in the least.

The more people there are paying attention to something, the more people there are who dislike it sufficiently to feel a need to get online and tell other people why they dislike it, the more negative posts you see.

 

[WHW4]

I think you'll find this is more because of the same reason nobody writes viruses for Macs. Nobody cares.

Which is not to actually say that nobody cares. In actual fact, there are people who are very passionate about those all those companies (even Apple). But their proportion to the number of people following WotC's business doings is negligible. When WotC shifts, everyone pays attention. People who like 4e pay attention because it affects them, but the people who hate 4e ALSO pay attention because they want to be proven right that 4e was badwrongfun, and WotC made a mistake. And everyone inbetween pays attention too for various reasons.

Compare that to Paizo and Green Ronin, where I don't pay attention to what they do, because it doesn't affect me in the least.

The more people there are paying attention to something, the more people there are who dislike it sufficiently to feel a need to get online and tell other people why they dislike it, the more negative posts you see.

Good points and I see what you mean. The only paying attention to WotC I do anymore is on this site and others like it.

Our group plays a lot of different games by a myriad of different companies, so maybe that's why I feel the way I do. I don't feel as beholden to Wizards for my gaming goodness, but I still personally hate to see the recent changes.

Ah well, guess we'll see where this rabbit hole takes us eventually, right?

 

[humble minion]

I never see threads on here decrying the latest Paizo blurb, or that Green Ronin is shooting itself in the foot.

Well, if you want some threads claiming Green Ronin is shooting itself in the foot, you could always take a quick peek at some of the responses to the Mutants and Masterminds 3e rules changes on the Green Ronin boards! Just cos it doesn't happen here doesn't mean it isn't happening.

4E is missing two key components that prevent it from being the Titanic:

• it's not unsinkable
• no naked Kate Winslet

If 4e came packaged with a naked Kate Winslet, somehow I don't think there'd be any problems at all with sales figures...

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

If 4e came packaged with a naked Kate Winslet, somehow I don't think there'd be any problems at all with sales figures...

She smokes like a chimney and has yellow teeth that only get polished for movie roles. It'll take more than her to get me to buy 4e.

 

[Celtavian]

Well, the OP asked how we got to this sort of discussion suddenly. All I'm saying is that it has by no means been sudden, and that in fact this sort of talk as been going on for years. It isn't even specific to 4e. We had much the same back in the 3e days, too.

But, to answer your question, let me restate it slightly:

What if the reason for that backlash is that a relatively small number of people who don't have any actual business information (like budgets, or sales numbers) feel like stating opinions on business?



Well, before you come to conclusions, you have to subtract the noise due to bias. The "800 lb gorilla" of gaming has had detractors since back when it was TSR. People have been beating on it forever, and not always for good reason. Paizo is the small guy, the underdog, and we always love underdogs.

I would not go anywhere near the claim that "most people genuinely don't like what WotC is doing". I don't feel the posts on this board come anywhere near being data to suggest that as a true statement. No statistician worth the name would think we comprised a representative sample of the market.

2E and 3E were very well-received by the majority of the D&D community. 3E was the most robust period in D&D in its history for sales and game growth. It was what made Hasbro even give the brand a chance more than likely. It did not cause the sort of schism we have now. I have been here since EN World's beginning, I can state with certainty that 3E never came close to causing the schism in the D&D world that 4E caused. Didn't even come within sniffing distance.

4E was the biggest disruption to the D&D market I can recall in my 30 years of gaming. I have never seen this type of schism in the D&D market.

I have no idea of the financial health of 4E. It may be doing very well. They may have taken a pretty big hit to their market. I don't know. I don't have the numbers. I'd love to see how 4E compares to 3E from initial launch to the present time.

I believe 4E split the market like no other edition ever has. It was vastly different from the old editions of D&D. The biggest change in the past 20 years.

No idea how 4E will do. I'm not in the loop any longer as far as D&D goes. Don't visit the WotC site. Don't buy 4E. I look forward to Pathfinder releases now for the first since I was 10 years old. So does my group.

Very strange time for D&D, that's for sure. I'm not surprised some people wonder what's happening with the game. So many other activities D&D compete against. It used to be D&D competed against itself and other RPG games. Now it competes against the MMORPG market as well.

I hope some iteration of D&D will survive into the future. But who knows. Games may become so good that you plug into a virtual world and live D&D. I doubt pen and paper will survive that any more than radio shows like The Lone Ranger and The Whisperer survived the advent of TV.

I'll keep playing a pen and paper RPG until I'm dead most likely. Pen and paper should stay around that long. Though whether the D&D brand is still around, I don't know. But it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[GreyLord]

2E and 3E were very well-received by the majority of the D&D community. 3E was the most robust period in D&D in its history for sales and game growth. It was what made Hasbro even give the brand a chance more than likely. It did not cause the sort of schism we have now. I have been here since EN World's beginning, I can state with certainty that 3E never came close to causing the schism in the D&D world that 4E caused. Didn't even come within sniffing distance.

4E was the biggest disruption to the D&D market I can recall in my 30 years of gaming. I have never seen this type of schism in the D&D market.

I have no idea of the financial health of 4E. It may be doing very well. They may have taken a pretty big hit to their market. I don't know. I don't have the numbers. I'd love to see how 4E compares to 3E from initial launch to the present time.

I believe 4E split the market like no other edition ever has. It was vastly different from the old editions of D&D. The biggest change in the past 20 years.

No idea how 4E will do. I'm not in the loop any longer as far as D&D goes. Don't visit the WotC site. Don't buy 4E. I look forward to Pathfinder releases now for the first since I was 10 years old. So does my group.

Very strange time for D&D, that's for sure. I'm not surprised some people wonder what's happening with the game. So many other activities D&D compete against. It used to be D&D competed against itself and other RPG games. Now it competes against the MMORPG market as well.

I hope some iteration of D&D will survive into the future. But who knows. Games may become so good that you plug into a virtual world and live D&D. I doubt pen and paper will survive that any more than radio shows like The Lone Ranger and The Whisperer survived the advent of TV.

I'll keep playing a pen and paper RPG until I'm dead most likely. Pen and paper should stay around that long. Though whether the D&D brand is still around, I don't know. But it will be interesting to see what happens.

No offense...but what you say is funny.

I recall the biggest explosion was in the early days going from 0-1000 gamers to 10 million + gamers...some would say upwards of even more than that during the early to mid 80s.

I recall the biggest schism when 3e came out. It only sold 1,000,000 copies that first year...and though many say that's a TON and MORE than expected...when they should have sold 5-10 million and some people were even banking on it competing with Monopoly sales overall (in the millions, not single million...millions)...that can show a schism of what people prefer right there.

They STILL haven't gotten those people to play or back into RPG's (what is that, an estimated 25 million gamers currently...and I'm betting a majority of those are NOT playing 4e, Pathfinder, or even 3.X).

The biggest splits in the market actually had nothing to do with RPGs however...though 3e was probably the biggest as far as any single RPG release is concerned (though I'd say even bigger was a failing interest in 2e...3e wasn't really the schism at all, more like the thing that got a ton of new players and many of the older players who got bored or disliked AD&D back into the D&D fold).

First and foremost was the FAD died from the early to mid 80s. People got into other things.

Secondly, a HUGE amount of people who played in the 80s...grew up and got so busy that they didn't play anymore.

The top two are what I attribute most of the gaming market loss.

Thirdly, Computer games got more and more advanced until they replicated RPG's. When you compare first year sales of 3e to the D&D computer sales of BG, BG2, or NWN (first), the numbers are actually closer then what one might expect. One would think computer D&D gamers would only be a niche of the PnP D&D crowd...but numbers indicate it is FAR more than simply a niche, even back than when the games came out.

The biggest schism in these days however, is the MMORPGs. Comparatively...MMORPG's are kicking D&D's rear end in simple game sales. Even one, WoW is massively gigantic. If DDi, or D&D ever got the audience that has...there would be no problems with income or expectations with financials at all with D&D.

So, I don't exactly agree with your statements.

 

[WHW4]

Well, if you want some threads claiming Green Ronin is shooting itself in the foot, you could always take a quick peek at some of the responses to the Mutants and Masterminds 3e rules changes on the Green Ronin boards! Just cos it doesn't happen here doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I actually do frequent those boards, and I very rarely see a thread get as over-the-top as I do here on ENWorld. In fact, as far as boards go, the ATT is one of the calmest and most respectful in tone. There are a couple people who snipe at each other, but by and large things are pretty level-headed over there.

Anyhow, I still don't think what's going on over at Wizards is good for the community as a whole. That's just my opinion though. It just seems like they keep taking a step backwards every few months.

Also, this is sort of related to the other thread/s scrolling up and down the first page here: In a hobby as community driven as tabletop gaming is, I'd sure keep my eye on what people say about my announcements on other websites. Would I agree with everything? No, but I'd still keep my finger on the pulse.

Maybe they do that, but again every decision they've made lately has seemed to drive huge wedges in the community. Maybe I'm just seeing things though.