D&D 4E 4e - Too much change?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Klingons are allies of the Federation now?!?! This isn't Star Trek anymore!

Greedo shoots first? This isn't Star Wars anymore!

 

[A'koss]

Yes, people have been clamoring for faster action, grappling not being complicated, etc. But...

- Removing classic races in favor of new ones that I haven't seen anyone clamoring for.

It's not hard to see why they would introduce a half-fiend, half-celestial & half-dragon race to core D&D. Gnomes and Half-Orcs are the least popular races so they get cut in leiu of new kewl kids on the block. I'm just surprised they didn't include Drow in the mix...

- Removing the school based theory of magic, which I haven't seen anyone clamoring for.
- Removing several major schools from wizards, which I haven't seen anyone clamoring for.

True, they are narrowing the Wizard class, but it looks as though they're taking the school concept out in leiu of creating full classes for (as least some) of the specialty fields. They have already said they are saving some of the good illusions and necromancy spells for "honest to gosh" Illusionist and Necromancer classes down the line. That'll mean they'll have their own unique spell list and associated powers.

And now that we know they are saving the best enchantment stuff for Psionicists, it makes sense that they design the Wizard class so that certain niches are protected for future classes.

- Removing the Great Wheel, which I haven't seen anyone clamoring for.

I'm not so keen on some of the stuff they've done here, but IIRC, the idea was to make the planes more adventure-friendly. For example, the Elemental Chaos (which is one idea I really like) is a place where PCs can go and not have to have their "shields" up at all times. The Astral Domains and Abyss are now more finite realms which means you can have a map of Demogorgon's entire realm and it becomes something you can get your head around.

But the campaign's cosmology is just fluff, there's nothing to stop anyone from doing their own as we've been doing since D&D's been around. IMG, I use my own planar structure - a kind of near-end-of-time setting where all the Great Wheel's planes have imploded into a single finite plane comprised of all their elements.

I don't see that changing in 4e.

 

[dmccoy1693]

If the designers and developers think it's better, that's the only measure that can be relied upon.

I'm sure the designers and developers of New Coke thought it was better.

Just curious (I'm posing a genuine question searching for a genuine answer, I'm not looking to be cause an argument), but what do you expect them to say, that it's different, that it's not their cup of tea, that they think it's terrible? If they said that it was anything less then the best thing since sliced bread, would anybody buy it?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm sure the designers and developers of New Coke thought it was better.

I'm sure they didn't care one way or the other so long as it tested well among focus groups. If boiled grass clippings would make Coke sell better, then they'd be in.

 

[MerricB]

But with this new edition (from what we've heard, and sure it's incomplete blah blah) you can't reconcile Dragonlance with it.

You mustn't be that familiar with Dragonlance, then.

Dragonlance has always played fast and loose with D&D convention. And, strangely enough, 4e looks to be much closer to base Dragonlance than any other edition.

Consider this:

Dragonlance has no Gnomes, (Half-)Orcs or Hobbits. It has Kender, Irda, Draconians, and Minotaurs & Tinker Gnomes.
D&D 4e has no Gnomes, Half-Orcs or Hobbits. It has (Kenderized) Halflings, Eladrin, Dragonborn, although no PC Minotaurs nor Tinker Gnomes.

Sure, it's not a 1:1 comparison, but there are elements there.

The idea of specialising in Spell Schools is (mostly) a 2e invention. It isn't used in BECM D&D. They aren't used in original AD&D, except in the couple of precursor products to 2e. For the most part, they sucked. Patch after patch had to be added to the system because it doesn't really give balanced, playable specialist wizards - as opposed to the dedicated spell-list AD&D Illusionist.

The Great Wheel was killed in 3e. Forgotten Realms 3e doesn't use it. Eberron doesn't use it. Dragonlance never used it. Only the default "Greyhawk" material made use of it.

New Races? They're there to replace the races that weren't that popular.

Cheers!

 

[helium3]

Is WotC Running a Disastrously Bad Marketing Campaign for 4e? Maybe we can't evaluate the system yet, but we sure as heck can talk about how the information has and hasn't been disseminated.)

Yes, please start this thread.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Well, I see quite a few elements of BECMI D&D in the announcements so far. . . .

Those are good ones.

I couldn't help but think the heroic/paragon/epic paradigm was lifted right out of the BECMI breakdown as well.

 

[BASHMAN]

Well, there is always Castles & Crusades. Sometimes, I think that 4e is one of the best things to happen... to help market C&C.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Those are good ones.

I couldn't help but think the heroic/paragon/epic paradigm was lifted right out of the BECMI breakdown as well.

I was going to add that, too, but then I was in doubt about one thing...their announcement that "high levels will play like low levels" in 4E. Now I'm not sure if they talk about WHAT is played at high levels (dungeon crawls of epic proportions?) or how it is played (rules and numbers working the same as on low levels?), but neither really fits in the old BECMI D&D. There, you had a complete change of scope by mid-to-high levels (and I mean COMPLETE), and the numbers didn't work like at low levels anymore either...characters were world-shaking political powerhouses that ruled their own kingdoms and laughed at all but the toughest monsters, on their quest towards immortality...and THOSE numbers definitely played out differently.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

I'm sure the designers and developers of New Coke thought it was better.

So did the general populace, actually. New Coke performed extremely well with audiences in both market research and on the market, at least initially. What turned things around was the prolonged whining of a small subset of Coke's base -- primarily from the southern USA -- that ultimately convinced people who were enjoying the drink that some bizarre crime was being committed.

There is now absolutely no way for me to end this post without sounding snarky, so I'll settle for sudden.