D&D 4E 4e - Too much change?

[Mistwell]

I Officially Dub Fourth Edition Dungeons and Dragons as Gauntlet Edition​

Comments?

I disagree. I think you have intentionally dumbed down the brief description from the guy in Hungary about the races and classes preview book to pretend that it's just like the wizard in Gauntlet while ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. I think all the things you love about a wizard they will still be able to do in some fashion. It may be called a ritual now or something, and it may involve them using an object to do it, or a feat, but they can still do what you want them to do.

 

[Simon Marks]

I'm curious (and no snark whatsoever intended) but why do you think this. I've seen this sentiment expressed a few times and I want to understand it.

I've stated that the 4e feels like the spiritual successor to BECMI D&D, but it's very hard to explain why.

Part of it, for me, is the Planes fluff changes. The loss of the great wheel, the Astral Sea with outer planes floating in it. The Elemental Vortex, the Feywild and Shadowfell all feel like something from BECMI.

BECMI was distinctly less "Simulationist" than AD&D. Races as classes, no multiclassing etc. The fact that Monsters and PCs where totally different is something for example.

BECMI feels more ... Mythic and fantastical than AD&D. AD&D was too mired (for me) in being 'real'.

The flagship scenario for AD&D as far as I am concerned is Keep on the Borderlands.
The flagship scenario for BECMI D&D was Palace of the Silver Princess.

Does that help?

As an avowed BECMI D&D preferer over AD&D, the fact that 4e feels more like BECMI for the above reasons (less ... real, more Fairy Tale) means I am far more interested in it than I otherwise would be.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

The flagship scenario for AD&D as far as I am concerned is Keep on the Borderlands.
The flagship scenario for BECMI D&D was Palace of the Silver Princess.

Does that help?

I know what you're getting at, but can't resist chuckling over a B-series module being cited as the flagship scenario for AD&D.

 

[Brian Compton]

I guess this boils down to opinion on what is drastic and what is not. IMHO whether your for or against it, the reconstruction of the magic system is a drastic change...as is giving all classes per-day, per-encounter and at-will abilities and the fact that encounters have scaled from skirmishes to full blown battles. Second wind and Bloodied are pretty big changes as well. Racial abilities being spread out over levels and attacks that use various stats for their bonuses(ala Paladins smite).

It would be drastic if these ideas hadn't already been in use as options. As my DM accurately predicted -a while ago- many of the supplements released up to now were previews (or testing grounds) for 4E. I can't speak to ToM, but Bo9S has been very popular (many characters in D&D games on rpol.net incorporate these rules). If it wasn't, I'm guessing you wouldn't be seeing the incorporation of per encounter abilities in the core rules.

I do agree with one point, it will boil down to how all of these interlock. One of the impressions I get from the tidbits we have so far is that healing will be drastically easier (maybe too easy) in 4e, I mean variable classes with healing powers (Warlord, Cleric, Paladin, etc.) plus second wind, plus magical items that heal just seems like alot, especially when you add in the fact that abilities (except per-day) will be useable over and over again.

I can see that as a good thing. For one, the cleric doesn't have to play band-aid. For another, it gives other classes something else to do. Also, multi-classing may actually work well- a cleric doesn't have to give up healing power or spell power to gain combat abilities, as healing may be part of their second class too. Finally, every party isn't de facto required to have a cleric or be hosed. This will really give options, as opposed to 3E's very rigid set up where all encounters were based on a party having one warrior, one arcanist, one cleric, and one skill monkey (usually rogue) minimum.

 

[Aldarc]

While the changes between 3.5 & 4.0 we have heard about thus far may appear to be quite dynamically different, when one expands their look at the d20 market and not just D&D, the changes really are not that drastic or unexpected. I think that WotC did not just look at D&D 3.5 and ask what was wrong with it, but also looked at all of the 3rd Party products that were getting nothing but praise and asking "What are they doing that we are not?" These products included Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, many Green Ronin products, etc. that took the existing sacred cows of D&D and threw some of them completely out of the window and then expanded the abilities and concepts of D&D in ways that WotC could not since they had to maintain their system. Then as Compton said, D&D began to experiment and incorporate some of these ideas in the ToM and Bo9S supplements and then again in Star Wars Saga Edition.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

While the changes between 3.5 & 4.0 we have heard about thus far may appear to be quite dynamically different, when one expands their look at the d20 market and not just D&D, the changes really are not that drastic or unexpected. I think that WotC did not just look at D&D 3.5 and ask what was wrong with it, but also looked at all of the 3rd Party products that were getting nothing but praise and asking "What are they doing that we are not?" These products included Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, many Green Ronin products, etc. that took the existing sacred cows of D&D and threw some of them completely out of the window and then expanded the abilities and concepts of D&D in ways that WotC could not since they had to maintain their system. Then as Compton said, D&D began to experiment and incorporate some of these ideas in the ToM and Bo9S supplements and then again in Star Wars Saga Edition.

Not only that, but other games that are not even d20 based - the social conflict mechanism (at least what I've heard of it - especially the "you might get what you want but you might have to give something up to get it" aspect - reminds me strongly of that of Burning Wheel.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm curious (and no snark whatsoever intended) but why do you think this. I've seen this sentiment expressed a few times and I want to understand it.

Yeah, I tend to feel the opposite.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I'm curious (and no snark whatsoever intended) but why do you think this. I've seen this sentiment expressed a few times and I want to understand it.

Well, I see quite a few elements of BECMI D&D in the announcements so far.

- Points of Light concept has been a strong element in the old Basic and Expert Set, down to Karameikos as a Duchy with "vast" amounts of wilderness and a few, fortified settlements outside the capitol.

- The dichotomy of chaos and order in the Planes is echoed in the Abyss being at the core of the Elemental Vortex "below" the Prime, and the Astral Sea with all the Divine Domains swimming around in it "above" the Prime hearkens back to the Immortals and their Domains swimming around in the Astral Plane, and the Sphere of Entropy with its demons opposing everything in creation. Okay, the Elemental Planes were not part of that make-up, but it does carry the same flavour of "Order" vs. "Chaos" as primary focus. This ties in with the Points of Light concept, which usually means small specks of order and civilization in a vast sea of wilderness and chaos.

- If I look at the races, gnomes and half-orcs never were player races back then as far as I recall (until Creature Crucible 2, that is ), but the Tieflings definitely remind me of the Diabolus, the horned, hoof-footed, betailed creatures from the Nightmare Dimensions that were available as player race at some point (I think the Master's Set? Not sure now... )

Those are a few of the things that remind me of BECMI D&D when I think about them. And it's one of the few things I don't dislike about 4E.

 

[Brian Compton]

Help for someone whose only known D&D since early 90's...

What does BECMI mean?

 

[A'koss]

Help for someone whose only known D&D since early 90's...

What does BECMI mean?

Shorthand for Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters/Immortals sets.