D&D 4E 4e - Too much change?

[Emirikol]

Folks, let's be realistic. 4E is being released for two reasons:
1) enough players demand it
2) it's good business

I think those are good reasons and the changes are irrelevant..although they do give us some good discussions eh?

jh

 

[Fifth Element]

..although they do give us some good discussions eh?

As long as you remember that "good" is subjective.

 

[A'koss]

Some* of these problems are edition accidents, such as the multiclassing rules. I would never say the new multiclassing rules, whatever they may be, are "not D&D enough". But other things like vancian magic, spell slots, clerical healing spells and daily-based resource management are what D&D is all about, in all editions.

Vancian magic, spell slots and daily-based resource management have been some of the most maligned elements of the game. 4e is still hanging on to a little of it, but from what I see the new 4e model is a vast improvement. I remember when Meals described how the crowds cheered when it was announced that Vancian Magic was (mostly) going away. I think that will be the smallest bones of contention in the new edition.

At any rate, it's inevitable that someone (Dragon Mag, 3rd party product) is going to create a Vancian caster for 4e somewhere down the line, but it's a huge relief that they're finally addressing this in the core rules.

 

[Odhanan]

Folks, let's be realistic. 4E is being released for two reasons:
1) enough players demand it
2) it's good business

These two things do not relate to my gaming at all, though. The changes, however, if I was to buy and play 4E (and even if I don't, actually, in the expectations 4E will create with the gamers I meet and play with in the future), are very, very relevant to my gaming. Just sayin'.

 

[Keldryn]

i think the news we are getting, like the news we got back with 3e, is too disjointed and out-of-context for me to make a judgement about whether or not it will be good.

That is something we need ot remember - back with the 3e release, there were people saying pretty much the same thing - that there were too many changes for it to be D&D - who came to love the new game.

Which is not to say you will love 4e. It merely suggests that making final judgments before you can see the entire set of rules is perhaps not the most wise course. There is no need to decide now whether you'll like the new game, so why do so without complete information.

People need to keep this in mind. All we are getting right now are isolated bits about a few things that are changing in a particular part of the system. Without the context of how it all ties together in the 4th Edition game as a whole, there is no way to make an informed judgment as to changes being only for the sake of change.

Plenty of grognards over on Dragonsfoot believe quite fervently that D&D 3.x is no longer the same D&D game that they have played for years; it's a different set of mechanics with a different flavour that just happens to borrow the D&D brand name.

The way I see, mechanically 4e will be a further revision of the 3.x rules (much like the Star Wars "Saga" edition is to its predecessor), but thematically it seems to move away from Advanced D&D and more in the direction of BECMI D&D. It doesn't seem to be very influenced mechanically from BECMI, but what we've seen so far of 4e feels very much in that game's spirit.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As for too much change, you can never have too much change if it makes things better.

I disagree. Would you turn every bicycle into a motorbike because it goes faster?

Faster does not necessarily equal better. If turning into a motorbike made my bike better, then sure. If not, no.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Heh. A lot of the recent "Doom and Gloom" is based off of "Races and Classes". This is a dead tree product, finished weeks ago, before the PH was pushed back. Our only source is a paraphrase by a non-native English speaker. The book itself is handwavey and non-crunchy.
We've known for WEEKS that Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy were being nerfed. The wizard is getting a niche. Yes, this is an experiment. WOTC is also LISTENING. Dragon's Tail Cut, Out. FR Deitiy Mess, patched a little. We are moving clouds. I have a feeling this was the PH delay reason. Tweaking the tone of the edition.

I hope you're right. The flavour of the default setting is what bugs me the most, especially if it's too heavily stitched to the mechanics. I want to be able to chuck out the default setting wholesale, without having to change the names of all the feats. I hope WotC have figured out that they're terrible with naming things and outsourced it to someone.

 

[Mistwell]

i think the news we are getting, like the news we got back with 3e, is too disjointed and out-of-context for me to make a judgement about whether or not it will be good.

That is something we need ot remember - back with the 3e release, there were people saying pretty much the same thing - that there were too many changes for it to be D&D - who came to love the new game.

Which is not to say you will love 4e. It merely suggests that making final judgments before you can see the entire set of rules is perhaps not the most wise course. There is no need to decide now whether you'll like the new game, so why do so without complete information.

I agree. Indeed, I think if people looked at some posts back just before 3.0 came out and at the people saying how horrible it sounded to them, and they recognized those handles as some people who currently love 3.0 and 3.5, it might sink in better.

This same kind of fear came about just before 3.0. WORSE even. Once it comes out, people adjust and come to love it. Change is hard...

 

[Imaro]

The argument is that the mechanical changes are not drastic, when compared to the mechanical changes between 2E and 3E. The balance is between drastic flavour changes and non-drastic mechanical changes. I submit that, on balance, the changes are lesser than those between 2E and 3E.

I guess this boils down to opinion on what is drastic and what is not. IMHO whether your for or against it, the reconstruction of the magic system is a drastic change...as is giving all classes per-day, per-encounter and at-will abilities and the fact that encounters have scaled from skirmishes to full blown battles. Second wind and Bloodied are pretty big changes as well. Racial abilities being spread out over levels and attacks that use various stats for their bonuses(ala Paladins smite).

I do agree with one point, it will boil down to how all of these interlock. One of the impressions I get from the tidbits we have so far is that healing will be drastically easier (maybe too easy) in 4e, I mean variable classes with healing powers (Warlord, Cleric, Paladin, etc.) plus second wind, plus magical items that heal just seems like alot, especially when you add in the fact that abilities (except per-day) will be useable over and over again.

 

[Imaro]

It doesn't seem to be very influenced mechanically from BECMI, but what we've seen so far of 4e feels very much in that game's spirit.

I'm curious (and no snark whatsoever intended) but why do you think this. I've seen this sentiment expressed a few times and I want to understand it.