D&D 4E 4E vs. Iron Heroes- per encounter abilities

[Greg K]

So what's the risk mechanic in BoIM?

I might check out the PDF of that.

Thanks, -- N

Risks depend on how the maneuvrs are built. They might include one or more of the folloiwng:
-penalty to hit
-drawing AoO's (might be from your target or everyone) which might ruin your maneuver
-opponent gets a free strike
- full-round action
-giving up damage
-lose Dex to AC until next action
- an opposed check
-opponent has chance to use the maneuver on you
-you suffer the maneuvers effects as well
-opponent's save negates the effect

Here are some helpful links from the Malhavoc website

Preview: sample maneuvers from Chapter 1
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BOIM_preview

Web Enhancement: bonus maneuvers
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BOIM_webenhance

Web Enhancement: Cheat sheet for building maneuvers
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BOIM_cheatsheet

 

[med stud]

I don't know if it's typical but IME many times the GM knows the rules well and many players, especially new, don't have a deep knowledge of the rules. In that case, to keep their interest, it would be better to have many details but at a simple and modular level enough that you don't overwhelm a new player. I think IH, while a fantastic game otherwise, don't fit for this description.

I also think that the 4e designers haven't thought about the danger of stereotypic encounters where everyone uses ability 1 the first round, ability 2 the second etc. I would be surprised if it wasn't one of the bigger design goals to avoid that kind of combats.

 

[Gloombunny]

Has anyone here played much with Bo9S classes? Do they end up being predictable and repetitive as some people are worried maneuver-based classes will? If not, how do you think they manage to avoid it?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Has anyone here played much with Bo9S classes? Do they end up being predictable and repetitive as some people are worried maneuver-based classes will? If not, how do you think they manage to avoid it?

I've played a bunch with it. The answer is: Yes AND no. They are repetitive in that they get a very limited number of maneuvers and so it tends to limit your choices to the same 5 or so maneuvers every battle. However, there is a lot of tactics based on which ones to use.

For example, if you have the maneuver that allows you and allies within a certain distance of you to all charge an enemy for more damage without using up your allies actions, you tend to use it only when you have enough allies nearby to make it worthwhile, and your allies are melee types, and you have room to charge.

If you have a choice between "generic do more damage attack" and "attack that does less damage but goes right through DR", you use them in different circumstances.

Almost all the disciplines get at least one maneuver that is pretty much just "do more damage" and that tends to be the one I see more people open up with. However, once it's used for the fight (or if some other maneuver better fits the situation), the rest get used. Most characters do play very similar in most battles, but change their strategy based on the situation at hand.

If all you fought was orcs on flat ground, I could see the order of maneuvers being almost identical each combat.

 

[Khuxan]

To add my own experiences as a low-level swordsage, I found combats were different enough that i used different manuevers... Setting Sun throws to chuck cultists into their fire, minotaur's charge to take out the BBEG when I was sickened, and so on. At higher levels, with even more maneuvers at your disposal (and in 4E with at will and per day abilities too) the options would increase even further.

I am a big fan of ToB's system.

 

[glass]

They are? Can you give some examples of such systems that are widely popular enough to support that people are getting used to them?

I believe Exalted 2e has tick-based combat.

I only ask because IH is about the only "tick-based" system I'm familiar with

It is? I have looked at my copy of IH for a while but I was pretty sure it is round-based just like standard D&D.


glass.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

If all you fought was orcs on flat ground, I could see the order of maneuvers being almost identical each combat.

Well, there's a limit to how predictable and repetitive a character's combat procedure can get, and that's "I attack him again with my weapon."

So long as a manoeuvre system is more interesting than that, it's got good things going for it.

 

[Pbartender]

Well, there's a limit to how predictable and repetitive a character's combat procedure can get, and that's "I attack him again with my weapon."

So long as a manoeuvre system is more interesting than that, it's got good things going for it.

And even then, players can still fall into that rut in games like Iron Heroes, where such alternate strategies abound.

 

[Henry]

I've played a bunch with it. The answer is: Yes AND no. They are repetitive in that they get a very limited number of maneuvers and so it tends to limit your choices to the same 5 or so maneuvers every battle. However, there is a lot of tactics based on which ones to use.

I have found that the Warblade AND Swordsage play identically almost every combat -- the players bust out the same abilities in almost the same order every combat, no variation, and focus on the damage-dealing stuff more than the tricks and moves and throws.

The Crusader, however, because of his "inspiration" mechanic played differently EVERY time, because he didn't know which abilities he was going to get each round. Kind of cool, really.

 

[Sir Brennen]

It is? I have looked at my copy of IH for a while but I was pretty sure it is round-based just like standard D&D.

"Tick-based" seems to be the latest gaming buzzword, and I freely admit I'm only inferring the meaning from context, and may not be using it properly (mainly I was responding to ruleslawery's comment about tick-based systems).

But in essence, I take it to mean a system which has a resource which you have "tick marks" that you track, and certain things happen when you reach a particular threshold (whether automatically or player-initiated). IH's tokens are one example. The description of Mongoose's new Traveller Initiative systems seems to be another.