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D&D 4E 4E WotC way of saying your fired?

Wolfspider

First Post
WayneLigon said:
So, your entire 4E feelings are based on this one little - easily changed, almost insignificant - tidbit? I have to ask you how often will this particular thing impact your day-to-day play? Do people in your campaign run into Asmodeus all the time or have some long range plan for raiding his fortress and destroying him? Are y'all at the end of a 20-year campaign that somehow hinges around the current planar configuration and set in the Hells?

Sounds like his dislike for this "tidbit" might be based on some pretty important beliefs...but that's just a guess. People have refused to buy a product over less. (For example, one of the designers using the word "gish" in an interview a while back nearly made me throw up in my skull.)

I am also worried about playtesting (or the seeming lack of it). As someone else mentioned, since the rules changes are so drastic in some cases, more playtesting needs to be done. I generally like the way that they are trying to fix some of the weaknesses of 3.5, but it may be too little too late. For example, if the rules for coup de grace were so obviously broken, then why is that just being found out now? Mind you, I'm glad they discovered it, but it still makes me worry.

I'll repeat what I've said before. I think that the new designers should have focused on fixing what was wrong with 3.5 and made some minor tweaks here and there, but they should have refrained from making so many sweeping changes that it almost seems like a new game, especially with regards to what some people regard as fluff.

Sure, changing eladrin back into gray and high elves for my Greyhawk campaign should be easy. So should changing succubus back into erinyes. So should any one of the minor but annoying and seemingly pointless changes that they've made. But when you take all of the changes and add them together, the process of adaptation becomes a whole lot less easy....
 

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Dark Psion said:
It may not be their intentions, but that is how 4E is coming across to some of us.

I sure get the feeling that WotC is "firing" me and letting me know they don't want me as a D&D player anymore.

They take the Forgotten Realms, the setting of D&D I know the best and to me is a key part of D&D, and they ravage it and turn it into some dark post-apocalyptic version of it. At the same time, they say they are Eberron only what is essential to use 4e with it.

They get rid of gnomes, they change magic around so much that they will have 25th level spells and at-will powers, they get rid of the Great Wheel, they greatly deemphasize alignment, and tie it all into a platform-specific online framework.

Out goes gnome illusionists, in comes tiefling warlocks. Now I'm feeling like a gnome illusionist, that when the PHB comes out, there is no place for me in it, that so much of what I think of when I think of D&D has been taken out that I can't.

It also seems like they were trying to fork the market or tell older fans to not bother when they said there would be no means of converting old characters to 4e. Converting my 2e PC's to 4e was one of the first things I did when I got 3e, and it was one of the ways I started to learn how the system worked, by figuring out character creation and progression and how to emulate old abilities and characters with the new system. Now WotC is saying don't bother, you can't do it.

If they are trying to chase away old D&D fans for new fans, intentionally forking the market to bring in fresh blood, they can do it, and I'll go on happily with my 3.5 books and teach my kids 3.5 instead of 4th or 5th edition when they get old enough for D&D in a few years.

It's just sad that after a decade of playing D&D, it feels like I'm getting a pink slip from WotC that I'm no longer a suitable customer.
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
DaveMage said:
The whole "firing your current customer base" does have precedent, IIRC.

One of the miniature companies (Games Workshop?) essentially did this a while back. They came out with an entire new mini line that was not compatible with the old line.

D&D Miniatures will be like that, too: The set for May '08 (some Dungon or other) will introduce the DDM 4e rules. They will also provide new stats for the three sets that were/will be released this year, and for some of the older figures. The rest of the figures will no longer be playable with the new rules, and the old rules will get no new figures.

And of course a lot of creatures are undergoing plastic surgery, so many of the old figures, especially the monsters, will no longer look quite like the (current) D&D creatures.

That will lessen the value of many of the old figures.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
This depresses me greatly. I really, really liked the first Pathfinder, and pretty much anything else Paizo has done over the last couple of years. However, I anticipate moving onto 4E. I want Paizo products to be compatible, but I can see where this timeline is very hard on 3rd party publishers. Frankly, I think that is WotC's design. They don't want to compete with great publishers, like Paizo and Green Ronin and Goodman Games. They want to compete with good publishers who can't touch their production values.
 

olshanski

First Post
{Snide response deleted}

To be productive: I was so glad when they "rebooted" D&D back at the onset of 3.0.

I was a grognard but I quit in about 1990 because I was getting sick of the 2nd edition bloat. After a decade away it was nice to come back to a sleek and trimmed down ruleset.

Too bad it didn't last for long.
 
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Kae'Yoss

First Post
mmu1 said:
I think you're missing the point.

The game is done, or close to it. It has to be - publishing schedules being what they are - and Erik probably knows it.

I'd say so, too: They don't give out early drafts of the game to playtesters. We can expect some tweaks, maybe serious ones, but I doubt that there will be any paradigm shifts.

I know that I'd give out playtest material to all the major publishers (and maybe even most minor ones). They'd be able to get a solid look at the product and plan early, and maybe I'd get some free insights out of the deal as they look over the rules and notice things that seem odd or off.
 

delericho

Legend
WayneLigon said:
So, your entire 4E feelings are based on this one little - easily changed, almost insignificant - tidbit?

No, my decision on whether to buy the game or not is based on that.

D&D 4e could be the greatest game in all creation, but if they make Asmodeus a god then it takes the game to a place I can't go, and so I won't buy it.

Conversely, if they change their minds over this, I will show my support for the decision by buying the core rulebooks, evaluating them, and making a decision. I'll do this even if I know the game won't be for me for two reasons: having requested the change, I feel I should support it; and the cost of the core rulebooks is a fairly trivial expense for me.

The reasons for my objection to this particular change fall under the "no religion" rule, so I won't discuss them here.
 

Kae'Yoss

First Post
delericho said:
My decision isn't quite set in stone at this point, but it's getting towards that point. There are three cases:

1) WotC retain Asmodeus as a god in the core rules. I don't buy 4e, or anything associated with it.

You know you're screwed either way ;) :p : Asmodeus is a god in the Pathfinder Chronicles. In fact, when I read about 4e introducing Asmodeus as a deity, my first thought was: Hey, they stole that from pathfinder!


Anyway, that's really a small and quickly correctible change in my opinion, especially since we're talking about the core, which is meant to be nothing but guidelines, anyway.
 

JeffB

Legend
wingsandsword said:
I sure get the feeling that WotC is "firing" me and letting me know they don't want me as a D&D player anymore.

They take the Forgotten Realms, the setting of D&D I know the best and to me is a key part of D&D, and they ravage it and turn it into some dark post-apocalyptic version of it. At the same time, they say they are Eberron only what is essential to use 4e with it.

They get rid of gnomes, they change magic around so much that they will have 25th level spells and at-will powers, they get rid of the Great Wheel, they greatly deemphasize alignment, and tie it all into a platform-specific online framework.

Out goes gnome illusionists, in comes tiefling warlocks. Now I'm feeling like a gnome illusionist, that when the PHB comes out, there is no place for me in it, that so much of what I think of when I think of D&D has been taken out that I can't.

It also seems like they were trying to fork the market or tell older fans to not bother when they said there would be no means of converting old characters to 4e. Converting my 2e PC's to 4e was one of the first things I did when I got 3e, and it was one of the ways I started to learn how the system worked, by figuring out character creation and progression and how to emulate old abilities and characters with the new system. Now WotC is saying don't bother, you can't do it.

If they are trying to chase away old D&D fans for new fans, intentionally forking the market to bring in fresh blood, they can do it, and I'll go on happily with my 3.5 books and teach my kids 3.5 instead of 4th or 5th edition when they get old enough for D&D in a few years.

It's just sad that after a decade of playing D&D, it feels like I'm getting a pink slip from WotC that I'm no longer a suitable customer.


I hear ya, tho I started to feel this way as 3.5 approached. 3.0 really started off well for me with the "improved rules, and healthy respect for the history of the game" attitude. But the direction of WOTC and its products changed and things got worse for me, and I no longer felt any real connection to the game or the staff of WOTC. Apparently these guys just didnt like the same things I did about D&D. I always went for OTHER RPGS when I wanted something "not D&D"...but these guys decided to "improve" D&D by making into a very different game.

EDIT: I should note that I didnt always agree with Skip, or Monte or Tweet or Ryan, but I felt like these guys really did care about trying to adhere to D&D "history and themes". After the HAsbro buyout and everyone had left, thats when things really went downhill for me.

Anyhoo...I'll give 4E a look just cos I'm not entirely closed-minded, but I have little faith in WOTC...very little. Especially when I read some of these designer BLOGs.

I'd trust Erik Mona ANY day of the week over WOTC when it comes to giving me a good D&D product, and I'd buy Paizo's 3.75 in a heartbeat. He's always been a stand-up no BS guy. The partnership with Bill and Clark just makes it all the better.
 
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Cadfan

First Post
I seriously doubt that WOTC is trying to "fire" their old gamers.

But sometimes I don't care if it happens.

I like older gamers who are useful to the game because they kindly usher newer players into the hobby. I don't like older gamers who directly harm the hobby by belittling younger players because the younger players want to play more modern fantasy archetypes than the grognards are comfortable with.
 

Maggan

Writer of The Bitter Reach
Kae'Yoss said:
They'd be able to get a solid look at the product and plan early

If I would give out the rules to publishers, I would first require a contract saying they won't publish until the three core books are out.

No Creature Collection this time around! :D

/M
 

ehren37

Adventurer
Stereofm said:
Now the TRUE design flaw of 3.X ... you want to know it ?

It's an empty rules system with nothing to remember it by !

WhaddI meanby this ? People do not remember 1.0 because of the rules. They remember it because they were scared shitless in I6 : Ravenloft or because they slew Lolth in Queen of the Demonweb pits.

Or maybe more DM's are writing their own adventures, which results in less shared "official" experience?

And honestly the demonweb pits adventure sucked. You had a boring set of coridoors (which looked like a video game map) and fought Lolth in a giant spider robot (zomg, video game! robots! anime!). Oh, lets not forget the stereotypical maarlith secretary doing her nails.
 
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GreatLemur

First Post
wingsandsword said:
It also seems like they were trying to fork the market or tell older fans to not bother when they said there would be no means of converting old characters to 4e. Converting my 2e PC's to 4e was one of the first things I did when I got 3e, and it was one of the ways I started to learn how the system worked, by figuring out character creation and progression and how to emulate old abilities and characters with the new system. Now WotC is saying don't bother, you can't do it.
They're saying you can't possibly recreate all the character options of 3e (the version of D&D that really opened the character option floodgates) with the rules available in brand new, we-haven't-got-any-suppliments-yet 4e. They're saying that you probably won't be able to convert your characters accurately, so your best bet will be a rough reinterpretation, or else a whole new campaign. My memories of 2e are admittedly indistinct, but I suspect 3e characters are far more varied, mechanically.

I'd say they're just being realistic and telling us they can't give us absolutely everything at the very beginning of the new game's lifecycle, not telling people with long-running campaigns to bugger off.

Anyway, isn't it fun to start a new campaign?
 

Wormwood

Adventurer
ehren37 said:
And honestly the demonweb pits adventure sucked. You had a boring set of cooridoors and fought Lolth in a giant spider robot (zomg, robots! anime!).

THANK YOU!

For 20 years I thought I was the only one who was bored senseless by that module.
 

SPECTRE666

Explorer
Awesome people, just awesome! I am a long time FR an and player. Its just these changes to the Realms got me alittle concered about whats happening to the Realms. I see that Eberron is basicaly not really changing and I am like wtf( according to James Wyatts blog). Thank you peeps for the replies. ;)
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
SPECTRE666 said:
Awesome people, just awesome! I am a long time FR an and player. Its just these changes to the Realms got me alittle concered about whats happening to the Realms. I see that Eberron is basicaly not really changing and I am like wtf( according to James Wyatts blog). Thank you peeps for the replies. ;)


Well, the FR is going to have to change. With 4e, it gets warforged as a standard race. :]
 


SPECTRE666

Explorer
Raven Crowking said:
Well, the FR is going to have to change. With 4e, it gets warforged as a standard race. :]
I have no problem with the Warforged if they do it right. I got some good ideas for the Warforged in the Realms anyway. Raumathari anybody. :] Its some of the other changes thats got me on the 4E FR fence. It seems to me(JMHO)that their nuking the Realms for no good reason. Go to the WotC FR Forum, and look at the WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH! It makes me think that WotC may be saying that I am not as important of a customer anymore and that is sad if that is the case. :( JMHO)
 

carmachu

Explorer
DaveMage said:
The whole "firing your current customer base" does have precedent, IIRC.

One of the miniature companies (Games Workshop?) essentially did this a while back. They came out with an entire new mini line that was not compatible with the old line. Apparently, this strategy *was* successful for them.


From a business standpoint, it seems shocking that a company would do that, but loyalty to the customer sometimes takes a backseat to profit.


You must be thinking of some OTHER manufacturer other than Games Workshop, because as a long time player of 40k and fantasy....no, GW was NOT successful. They've been steadily losing profit for the last 7 years easily, their unit sales have been continuously going down adn down, most notable in the US market, but its hit EU and UK recently, and have posted losses last quarter.

Dont tranmple your old friends, in your efforts to make new ones is a very old saying. One GW and WotC may want to think about....
 

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