D&D 4E 4E6: an E6 for fourth edition!

[fissionessence]

My 4E solution to E6 is to freeze Attack and Defense scores at 1st level (don't worry, I balance the scales on the monster's side too) and allow HP and Power Acquisition to advance normally until a level limit imposed by the "fantasticness" of the campaign world. That way goblins and city guards can hit 9th level PCs (even if they don't do too much damage relative to the HP total) and the connection with "normal" world is maintained.

This also explains how an army of 1st level city guardsmen can actually hit a dragon when it attacks their city. They can kill it with en masse crossbow volleys.

Have you played like this? I suppose if you have, it must have worked out well or you wouldn't have posted it here . . . but I feel like there must be something wrong with this, I just can't think of what it might be.

~

 

[Irda Ranger]

Have you played like this? I suppose if you have, it must have worked out well or you wouldn't have posted it here . . . but I feel like there must be something wrong with this, I just can't think of what it might be.

Well, let me know if you do.

I haven't had a chance to playtest it extensively actually but I can't figure out why anything should change once player perception of advancement is properly handled. The odds of hitting a monster at any given level is pretty much fixed in 4E, so canceling out the same value from both sides of the equation changes nothing.

The only real change is that the power curve is squashed down across 30 levels so that 1st level creatures are still a threat en masse in the Epic Tier, since they can hit you and wear you down over time. Which is basically exactly the role minions were made for (they're no longer even necessary).

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

I agree that E10 makes more sense than E6 in this case. Including 11th level is tempting though, just because the two Paragon Path features coming at the same time there add a nice bit of uniqueness that the power system doesn't necessarily give you.

 

[Alex319]

Well, let me know if you do.

I haven't had a chance to playtest it extensively actually but I can't figure out why anything should change once player perception of advancement is properly handled. The odds of hitting a monster at any given level is pretty much fixed in 4E, so canceling out the same value from both sides of the equation changes nothing.

The only real change is that the power curve is squashed down across 30 levels so that 1st level creatures are still a threat en masse in the Epic Tier, since they can hit you and wear you down over time. Which is basically exactly the role minions were made for (they're no longer even necessary).

Yes, and I think that's the point of the whole system. The point is to make the setting hang together better - and that's a lot harder to do if the characters in it are of extremely disparate power levels. For example, if a malevolent 20th level dragon is effectively invulnerable to anything short of a paragon tier character, and there aren't that many paragon tier characters in the setting, it's not clear why the dragon can't just run around and raze villages with impunity. (Also see item 26 on this list.) Effectively, squashing down the power curve helps limit the need for a Sorting Algorithm of Evil, and makes it so that a high level hero can actually be threatened by a large number of "ordinaries."

Having minions doesn't really solve that problem. If you wanted, say, town guards to be able to be a "threat en masse" to that rampaging 20th level dragon, then using the existing system you would have to make them at least 15th level minions or so, and then that would make them impossible to hit for low level characters. The point is effectively to make the battles more even without having to constantly rebalance based on the players' levels.

 

[77IM]

Well, I worked under the assumption the sweet-spot is less "one third to max level" and more "about six levels above first".

That is, do you guys really feel level 10 in 4E is comparable to level 6 in 3E? (When you contrast a character of that level with regular town NPCs, that is)

Yes. In my game, the King's champion is a level 10 fighter.

I don't think there's anything special about the number 6. That's just where the numbers happened to work out in 3.5 because 3rd-level spells were where the crazy started. In 4e, they deliberately deferred the crazy until 11th level. I think this is easiest to see in the wizard's utility spells -- all the great 2nd-level spells (invisibility, mirror image, blur, change self might have been 1st level) are now in the level 6 and level 10 utility buckets.

That said, I think you might be on to something with half-levels and altered power progression, and a slower level gain. I think you're right that there is some disparity between offense and defense. It raises interesting questions about magic item balance and monster balance.

You might check out these threads, as the driving idea is somewhat similar to E6:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...40-d-d-4th-edition-no-1-2-levels-bonuses.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...-half-level-bonus-everything.html#post4558202

-- 77IM

 

[Irda Ranger]

Yes, and I think that's the point of the whole system.

Um, so you're agreeing with me? I'm just confused because I think you just restated exactly what I said. Or was there something more?

 

[Alex319]

Um, so you're agreeing with me? I'm just confused because I think you just restated exactly what I said. Or was there something more?

I was actually more responding to fissionessence's post about "there's something wrong with it, I just don't see what" by trying to explain exactly what it seemed the system was supposed to do. Apparently I did a good job of it