D&D 4E 4e's Equivalent to Pathfinder

[AbdulAlhazred]

By writing one. That's meant with the utmost admiration. You've always had a steady handle on the rules and a keen eye for design. I agree totally with your assessment of what 4e could be, but isn't. The edition is almost entirely untapped. Your adventures truly sound wonderful, so do the community and the edition a favor: bite the bullet, sit down for a couple of weeks in your free time, and unleash an AA adventure on us. Please. We need the fan content if 4e is going to endure beyond 2014 and this is exactly the way it happens. I'll be right there with you, bud. Seriously, put fingers to keyboard and make the magic happen.

Oh, you just HAD to put me on the spot! OK, I do have a proposal for one. Something I threw together for my Tuesday group that honestly has great potential and would do great (I think) with some added input and fleshing out. I'll drop by fourthparty today and put together an outline for people to look at.

 

[Vartan]

Well, the upside is that some def4ders might now better understand how the 3.x grognards felt back in the days and they're still far away from the level of bashing their own current game the unloaded on 3.x and earlier during the transition period

I think there are a lot of jerks on the internet, and going through another edition war isn't going to make them any less jerky. To be fair, there was alot of mudslinging from all involved. It didn't help that some of the 4E preview products took an "in your face" tone when making the argument for the new edition. I got to the point where I stopped coming to EN World because I couldn't sift through the edition war threads to get to the good stuff.

I don't think this is a "now you know how it feels" moment so much as it is a "let's do it right this time" one. The tabletop RPG community is a small one: IMO we should use our wealth of talents to make great games, not insult one another. As much as anyone dislikes any particular edition of the game I think the evidence is clear that the divisiveness within the community has been bad for our hobby. I have made a few snide comments about 3E, Pathfinder, etc., but I was mistaken and (in my defense) biting at a lot of troll bait. Over the past year I've come to realize that when I get to rub shoulders with my fellow RPG players I'd rather trade ideas than carry on "edition war" arguments that are almost political or religious in nature.

 

[Vartan]

We don't need a 4E Pathfinder, we need a good 5E

We can parse out WotC's press releases and blog posts all day long, but there are a few facts worth considering:

1. WotC knows they can't throw 4E players under the bus. They see the sales numbers and the DDI subscriptions. The loss of market share to Paizo has obviously hurt them, but the last thing they can afford to do is alienate their loyal customer base.

2. WotC also knows that there's no putting the Pathfinder toothpaste back in the tube. The people who play Pathfinder do so for a lot of different reasons, most of which won't be cured by a new, inclusive, modular D&D edition. The best they can hope for is to sell a few books to the curious and perhaps pull a small percentage of Pathfinder players back into D&D.

3. WotC has issued an open call for input. 4E players can answer this call too. Instead of building walls around our game we need to let WotC know that we're passionate about 4E and that we want a 4E-style play experience to be available going forward. Pathfinder was built on the back of community input, and there's no reason to believe that 4E enthusiasts can't accomplish something similar now that WotC is soliciting input.

Love 4E? Tell WotC. Stay involved on forums, start a blog, let your voice be heard. WotC wants to listen to us and, in a sense, they have to, because we're the only people who are still buying their brand.

On that note, we should talk with our wallets: there are a lot of awesome new 4E products out there now. They've really hit their stride design-wise. If you see something you like then buy it. I got burnt out spending cash on some of the early releases, but now I view $26 for Gardmore Abbey on Amazon as a freaking bargain. If you play in the core setting and want adventure hooks then run, don't walk, to get Threats to the Nentir Vale. It's one of the best 4E books to date.

Let's not plan for a future without 4E, let's seize this moment and let WotC know why we're so passionate about this awesome game!

 

[Pour]

We can parse out WotC's press releases and blog posts all day long, but there are a few facts worth considering:

1. WotC knows they can't throw 4E players under the bus. They see the sales numbers and the DDI subscriptions. The loss of market share to Paizo has obviously hurt them, but the last thing they can afford to do is alienate their loyal customer base.

2. WotC also knows that there's no putting the Pathfinder toothpaste back in the tube. The people who play Pathfinder do so for a lot of different reasons, most of which won't be cured by a new, inclusive, modular D&D edition. The best they can hope for is to sell a few books to the curious and perhaps pull a small percentage of Pathfinder players back into D&D.

3. WotC has issued an open call for input. 4E players can answer this call too. Instead of building walls around our game we need to let WotC know that we're passionate about 4E and that we want a 4E-style play experience to be available going forward. Pathfinder was built on the back of community input, and there's no reason to believe that 4E enthusiasts can't accomplish something similar now that WotC is soliciting input.

Love 4E? Tell WotC. Stay involved on forums, start a blog, let your voice be heard. WotC wants to listen to us and, in a sense, they have to, because we're the only people who are still buying their brand.

On that note, we should talk with our wallets: there are a lot of awesome new 4E products out there now. They've really hit their stride design-wise. If you see something you like then buy it. I got burnt out spending cash on some of the early releases, but now I view $26 for Gardmore Abbey on Amazon as a freaking bargain. If you play in the core setting and want adventure hooks then run, don't walk, to get Threats to the Nentir Vale. It's one of the best 4E books to date.

Let's not plan for a future without 4E, let's seize this moment and let WotC know why we're so passionate about this awesome game!

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I've decided to turn mine efforts toward the existing edition. This doesn't prevent me from purchasing things I like and want (Heroes of the Elemental Chaos here I come!), nor does it exclude me from 5e playtests. Frankly I'm quite content with 4e, and the changes I want to see moving forward directly link to it, thus these threads, the notions of tapping into the untapped, pushing new adventures and design material. Honestly, grassroots and community-based 4e projects, and discussions with fellow 4thers who've played in the same system and understand it, these threads interest, reassure, and entertain me far more than the 5e forums or the playtest. The potential here, with a collection of dedicated and creative forum goers, is really exciting. I hope we can make something of ourselves.

 

[Vartan]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I've decided to turn mine efforts toward the existing edition. This doesn't prevent me from purchasing things I like and want (Heroes of the Elemental Chaos here I come!), nor does it exclude me from 5e playtests. Frankly I'm quite content with 4e, and the changes I want to see moving forward directly link to it, thus these threads, the notions of tapping into the untapped, pushing new adventures and design material. Honestly, grassroots and community-based 4e projects, and discussions with fellow 4thers who've played in the same system and understand it, these threads interest, reassure, and entertain me far more than the 5e forums or the playtest. The potential here, with a collection of dedicated and creative forum goers, is really exciting. I hope we can make something of ourselves.

lol sorry, I think I tried to say too much in my XP comment. Fourth Party is proof that 4E gamers are passionate, and that gives me hope! I'm working on a standalone con game that showcases Masterplan's utility, once I get a working draft done (my goal is July 1st, with a first run at Dragon Con) I'll definitely need feedback from the Fourth Party design thinktank

 

[Rogue Agent]

Technically I see no reason why someone couldn't use the OGL to construct a 4e clone in the same way people have created AD&D clones.

Largely because what you're doing is the exact opposite.

If you compare 3E with previous editions, you'll discover that the bulk of the difference lies in the core mechanics: The math is swapped around, etc. Most of the ancillary stuff is actually 99% the same. (For example, most of the spells and magic items in 3.0 actually use the exact same verbiage found in AD&D.)

If you compare 4E with 3E, however, you'll discover that the bulk of the difference lies in the ancillary stuff: The core mechanics (attack rolls, etc.) are mostly the same, while occasionally swapping out a d20 roll for a flat +10.

So if you're constructing a retro-clone from 3E, you're mostly just swapping out core mechanics. But if you're creating a 4E-clone from 3E, you're mostly swapping out the ancillary stuff.

And it's specifically that ancillary stuff where copyright can potentially burn you.

The publicly-stated position of WotC (like TSR before them) is that, while you can't copyright game mechanics, you CAN copyright the creative IP those mechanics are describing. This, of course, makes a lot of sense: Just because WotC published a Star Wars RPG, it doesn't follow that Jedi are up for grabs. Thus, according to WotC, you can't copyright "+2 bonus to AC"; but you absolutely can copyright the unique IP which is the D&D take on fantasy. And since you can't replicate the mechanics which model that unique IP without simultaneously infringing that IP... well, there you are.

This position has never, AFAIK, actually been tested in court. But there are a lot of reasons to think that it would stand up. (Not least because every single corporation who owns IP that has ever been licensed for a game will be joining in to make sure it does.)

And therein you see the problem: In making the retro-clones, people were redesigning the purely mechanical stuff that you can't copyright. But if you need to redesign the ancillary stuff (which is what a 4E clone would require), then you're going to run headlong into infringing on what WotC considers (and which probably is) legitimate IP.

What you could probably get was something that looks a lot like 4th Edition and plays a lot like 4th Edition in general, but which has a completely different set of classes; a completely different bestiary; etc. And, ultimately, that's not going to do the job of a clone. (And would probably be nothing more than a fantasy heartbreaker.)

 

[pemerton]

I don't doubt there will be some rules for playing 5e battles 'tactically' in some way, but that doesn't mean it will be a decent tactical combat system or that 5e will adequately translate the strong points of 4e. I don't even see anywhere that the people working on 5e are even aware of what the strong points of 4e are. In fact I'd argue that the people who LEAST understand 4e are and always have been the people at WotC. They have yet for instance to release an adventure or setting that even touches on the actual cool things you can do in 4e IMHO.

Completely agreed.

A good 4e adventure to me should read like an action adventure movie. Stuff should be BIGGER THAN LIFE, lots bigger! Not absurd, but big and bold and cut in straightforward chunks.

I've GMed quite a bit of H2 - Chamber of Eyes, Well of Demons, and Tower of Mysteries. In each case I changed stuff - both story background and the way the encounters are "scripted" - to make things more interesting and more dynamic (and also to level things up for my party, but that's easy in 4e).

These modules have some great maps, but crappy use of them by the designers. And the storylines as written are boring!

What are those cool things? I'm pretty interested in opinions about settings, and I've never seen a comment quite like this one.

AbdulAlhazred already said some sensible stuff in reply to this, but I'll add my own comments.

Look at a book like The Plane Above, and its discussion of journeying into deep myth, in order to change the fundamentals of the universe. And then compare the E-modules (I've only got E1, admittedly) - so many encounters that add essentially nothing to the story. And look at the "dialogue" with the Raven Queen, and the way the stakes are set out - "YAWN!".

We finally have a version of D&D that supports real mythological adventuring, with a robust core mythology to do it with, and a sourcebook - The Plane Above - that talks about it, but then the actual adventures deliver nothing like it.

I haven't got Gardmore Abbey, but the best version I've seen of a 4e adventure/setting is Neverwinter, which uses the idea of themes to try and link the PCs into the adventure, and give the players a say in setting the stakes. But that's just one small step - imagine what could be done with scenarios that tried to take seriously what it means for a PC to take on a paragon path or an epic destiny, and that put player ownership of the stakes of play - which 4e is so good at, because of its robust resolution mechanics - front and centre.

Honestly, without DDI/CB/MB/Compendium how interesting is 4e really?

I'm probably in a minority, but I'm not a subscriber - I do most of my prep on the train going to/from work, so rely on books, pen and paper. Even with such a primitive suite of technology, 4e is still interesting!

 

[pemerton]

Can a person or group be sued for using cloned rules if they're not profiting, or perhaps taking only donations for maintenance, web tools, and art orders?

I am not a practising lawyer, but I am an academic lawyer. And although my field is constitutional theory rather than IP and contract law, I will still confidently answer this "yes". The civil wrong is in using another's IP, not in profitting from it or causing them to suffer a loss by your use of it. The money issue would be relevant to the measure of any remedies awarded, however.

Is there a gray sort of 'fan' area that could keep a corporation at bay so long as money is kept out of it?

In US the relevant notion is "fair use". I'm not sure that that would get you as far as you want to go, however.

could cloned rules be put in SRD format when they'll never be attached to purchasable products?

Yes - the licence under which you permit use or reproduction of your SRD could prohibit those who take up the licence from selling their licensed products.

EDIT: Some of these legal issues have recently been discussed on the "Why Pathfinder is successful" thread on Genreal. [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION], in particular, has some sensible stuff to say about mechanics, fiction and IP (S'mon is an academic IP and contract lawyer).

 

[S'mon]

OTOH they've been quite happy to issue C&D letters to people providing certain 4e tools.

They've only ever done that on the basis of Trade Mark infringement, though, from what I've seen. Which can be avoided if you don't use the OGL or GSL and are careful only to use their mark as an indicator of compatibility, making clear it's used without permission (section 11 Trade Marks Act 1994 in the UK, I believe US law is very similar).

 

[Tony Vargas]

1. WotC knows they can't throw 4E players under the bus. They see the sales numbers and the DDI subscriptions. The loss of market share to Paizo has obviously hurt them, but the last thing they can afford to do is alienate their loyal customer base.

Really? Because what we've heard about the GSL on this thread makes it sound like they can put 4e six feet under in six months tops, no new anything. They could pull the plug on the tools instantly. And, 4e fans are, by definition, adoptors of the latest ed - many could probably counted on to unquestioningly adopt 5e just because.

2. WotC also knows that there's no putting the Pathfinder toothpaste back in the tube. The people who play Pathfinder do so for a lot of different reasons, most of which won't be cured by a new, inclusive, modular D&D edition. The best they can hope for is to sell a few books to the curious and perhaps pull a small percentage of Pathfinder players back into D&D.

Then why bother with the 'inclusive' editions. They're throwing away 4e and it's fan base, to get, what? Not new players, the thrust of 5e is towards established D&Ders. If not the 3.5 fans they 'lost' to Paizo, who? AD&Ders who've been holding out for 12 years or more? 0D&D greybeards?

On that note, we should talk with our wallets: there are a lot of awesome new 4E products out there now. They've really hit their stride design-wise. If you see something you like then buy it.

On that note, I have heard just about 0 buzz about Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. Considering what a pleasant surprise HotFw was, that's dissapointing in the extreme.