4th ed, the Good & the Bad?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It should not be similar results with interchangeable methods.

The question is, does "full sneak attack, all the time" really mean getting similar results with interchangeable methods?

We know there are 4 roles - Controller, Defender, Leader and Striker.
I think between the different Controllers, the different Defenders and so on, the methods might risk becoming a bit interchangeable.

But a Controller will never be interchangeable with a Striker. The controller shapes the battlefield, the striker takes down individual foes. That's a big difference, and the only similarity in end result is that, hopefully, at the end of the encounter, the only ones still standing are the player characters (and any opponent turned to stone/glass, paralyzed or pinned with arrows or a spear to a wall )

But I really doubt that a short-range teleporting Warlock throwing curses and eldritch blasts around will ever feel interchangeable to a Rogue. Even if "tumbling similar to teleporting" and "eldritch blast similar to sneak attack".

 

[JoeGKushner]

1. NO MORE LEVEL DRAIN (Good)
   
   
2. NO MORE ABILITY DRAIN (Good)
   
3. NO MORE ETHICAL ALIGNMENTS (Mark in the about time column)
   
4. SNEAK ATTACK ON ANYTHING (Good)
   
5. FASTER GAME MECHANICS & NPC CREATION (Bad)
   
   
6. NO MORE EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF MAGIC ITEMS (Depends on setting)
   
   
7. NO MORE (or less) VANCIAN CASTING (Good)
   
8. NO MORE SPELL SCHOOLS (bad?) FOCUS ITEMS (Need more info)
   
9. SKILL SYSTEM REVAMP (Need more info)
   
   
10. BASIC RACES CHANGES (bad)
    Not bad in that I think Dragonborn and Tielfling are the essence of evil but I think that the core book could actually use fewer races and build more examples of role playing, combat, character building advice, etc... as opposed to having different flavors of elf, etc...
    
11. Forgotten Realms Timeline Advance (Bad)
    
12. Forgotten Realms Novels still cannon (Bad)
    
13. Racial Pantheons getting the boot (Bad)
    
14. No introductory cost on the core books (Bad)
    
15. Core price increase on all books with all books being same price without being same page length (Bad)
    
16. Playtested less then previous edition (Bad)
    
17. Elimination of Prestige Classes (Depends on if they're actually gone or just renamed into the new paths)
    
18. Effort to actually balance feats (Good)
    Never understood Monte's take on rewarding players who don't take sucky feats, especially as some of those sucky feats were built into requisities for PrCs latter on.
    

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1. NO MORE LEVEL DRAIN (sort of?) (Good)

Bad.

2. NO MORE ABILITY DRAIN (Bad?)

Bad.

3. NO MORE ETHICAL ALIGNMENTS (Bad)

Bad.

4. SNEAK ATTACK ON ANYTHING (unsure)

Bad unless it requires being very skilled or taking particular Feats (or the equivalent)

5. FASTER GAME MECHANICS & NPC CREATION (Good)

Probably good.

6. NO MORE EXCESSIVE AMOUNTS OF MAGIC ITEMS (GOOD)

Neutral.

7. NO MORE (or less) VANCIAN CASTING (Good)

Bad. Vancian casting is one of the things that makes D&D stand out from the pack of other FRPGs, and makes you think a particular way.

8. NO MORE SPELL SCHOOLS (bad?) FOCUS ITEMS (Unsure)

Bad on the spell schools. Specialized mages are really, really cool.

Focus Items are potentially quite good- I use a lot of them in my HERO system spellcasters.

9. SKILL SYSTEM REVAMP (Good?)

Wait and see.

10. BASIC RACES CHANGES (bad)

Some bad, some good. I hate that they took some races out, but don't really mind them adding a couple. I do, however, have an issue with the imbalance (we get tieflings but not aasimar) and choices. Dragonborn could be quite cool- I like what I've heard so far...but Warforged have really earned a place in the front row, IMHO.

And to be honest, I'm all in favor of "exotic races." I played Drow PCs soon after the race was introduced (IOW, well before a certain novel character made his debut), and have had great fun playing oucast Minotaurs and the like. Did my PCs get "hunted" like Frankenstein's Monster or the Incredible Hulk? Sometimes...and when they were able to redeem themselves in the eyes of this or that community, it was all the sweeter.

11. The wizard as boom-mage (excreable)

Very bad if true.

12. Removal of Save-or-dies (mixed bag)

Neutral- I think they have a place, but the mechanics may need work.

And for my $0.02, I'll add:
13. Removal of certain base classes from the PHB in favor of newer base classes.

Possibly Bad.

If they're anything like the 3.X versions, I must say I haven't seen much of the newer base classes that I liked.

 

[Jhulae]

NO MORE (or less) VANCIAN CASTING
Vancian casting is good, fun and easy. I have played many spell-point RPGs and those systems are NOT perfect and require extra pip tracking. I suspect many people who cry against the Vancian system have little experience with playing wizards in other RPGs. I am very glad that 4e is not going spell-point and I am intrigued to see how the at-will / encounter / day combo works in actual play.

Vancian Casting is annoying and I'm glad to see it gone.

Oh, and for the record, I've played 'wizards' in Earthdawn, M:TA, GURPS, Arcana Evolved, True20, WFRP, Ars Magica, Conan, Iron Heroes, Secret of Zir'An, Mutants and Masterminds, and probably a couple other systems that escape my mind at the moment.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Since we're laying it all on the table, for the record, I've played "wizards" in:

Each edition of D&D
True 20/Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved/Iron Heroes/Midnight (and other D20 FRPG variants)
Northern Crown
5 editions of HERO
2 editions of Stormbringer
RIFTS/Palladium RPG/Heroes Unlimited
Star Wars (Jedi, of course)
Ars Magica 4th
Earthdawn
TORG
Everway
Mage: The Ascencion
Mutants & Masterminds
GURPS 2Ed & 3Ed
Melee/Wizard/In the Labyrinth series of games
Talisantha
Harn
Shadowrun
Deadlands
D20 Modern/Urban Arcana
A.C.E. (playtest, never released)

as well as in some games I no longer own.

Like I said- for me at least, Vancian magic helps D&D stand out from the other games.

 

[Jhulae]

Since we're laying it all on the table, for the record, I've played "wizards" in:

<long list>

as well as in some games I no longer own.

Like I said- for me at least, Vancian magic helps D&D stand out from the other games.

Ohh, I can't believe I forgot Shadowrun and Deadlands... And I had Talaslanta and Torg too, but we never played them. I made characters for them though.

And, while my post wasn't directed toward you, Danny, (since spinachcat was the one claiming those who didn't like it hadn't played mages elsewhere), I'll agree that Vancian Magic makes D&D stand out to me too - but in an annoying way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Oh, I didn't think it was a dig or anything!

I understand you were trying to give a perspective to your view. Its one thing to say that you like or dislike the Vancian system, its quite another to say so with only 1 or 2 different systems to your rep as compared to 10 or more.

It also illustrates what kind of experience you've had. For instance, even though I've played a number of "wizards" in the various Palladium games, I don't find it particularly pleasant. Ditto GURPS. OTOH, I'd rather play almost anything in M&M or HERO than just about any other system.

Its quite clear that both of us have a fair amount of experience and have drawn different opinions- both equally valid.

For me, the Vancian system is about strategic resource management- your components, your intellectual capacity, what spells you add to your repetoir. It reminds me of real-world academics.

Unless built specifically to mimic that kind of structure, wizards in most other games are incredibly flexible...sometimes to the point of seeming to be "supermen." Sometimes to the detriment of the fun of others.

 

[Jhulae]

Oh, I didn't think it was a dig or anything!

I understand you were trying to give a perspective to your view. Its one thing to say that you like or dislike the Vancian system, its quite another to say so with only 1 or 2 different systems to your rep as compared to 10 or more.

It also illustrates what kind of experience you've had. For instance, even though I've played a number of "wizards" in the various Palladium games, I don't find it particularly pleasant. Ditto GURPS. OTOH, I'd rather play almost anything in M&M or HERO than just about any other system.

Its quite clear that both of us have a fair amount of experience and have drawn different opinions- both equally valid.

For me, the Vancian system is about strategic resource management- your components, your intellectual capacity, what spells you add to your repetoir. It reminds me of real-world academics.

Unless built specifically to mimic that kind of structure, wizards in most other games are incredibly flexible...sometimes to the point of seeming to be "supermen." Sometimes to the detriment of the fun of others.

I can see your point. But, even with resource management such as Vancian, high level wizards (and clerics/druids) still seem to be supermen (and women) of the D&D universe.

I think my favorite system for mages was Earthdawn out of all the list. A mage had a bunch of spells, but only a few 'online' at any given time. If one of the 'offline' spells would do better in a current encounter, the mage could either try to shift spells (requiring time), or cast them anyway and possibly draw the attention of Really Nasty (tm) stuff..

And thanks for bringing up Palladium.. I'd been trying to purge that from my mind for years now.

 

[Mercule]

The question is, does "full sneak attack, all the time" really mean getting similar results with interchangeable methods?

That is the $64,000 question. There's a range that has "only a fighter can handle a combat" at one end and "a fighter attacks once each round with a sword that does 1d8+str damage and a mage attacks once each round with a spell-like ability that does 1d8+int damage" (for even more apples to apples, make it a ranger and a mage) at the other.

Either extreme is bad. Somewhere in the middle is going to be a balance that is most fun for most people. I don't know where that balance is. I was just saying that I really, really hope WotC doesn't try to push 4E too far to the 1d8+stat end.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

high level wizards (and clerics/druids) still seem to be supermen (and women) of the D&D universe.

True...but they seem to get to that point faster in so many other systems.