4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

WarDragon said:
I don't have the energy to pop the rest of your optimistic statements.

10 out of 10 for the Coup de Grace on that one =^.^= .

While you are welcome to your opinions Krusty, you sure are warming up to 4.0 a bit quickly for someone who takes great pains to slowly perfect his 3.5 art. Just take 4.0 in stride, it isn't a fix for the flaws, it's just reintroducing preexisting flaws and some new original ones.

As the debate over 4.0 rages, it's just going to get worse. Everytime you type something you end up convincing more people to not buy into 4.0's garbage. You keep repeating yourself without actually proving any of your points =^.^= .

All of this makes my job easier =^.^= .

DOWN WITH 4.0 !!! UP WITH A REMIX OF 3.5!!! And so on and so forth.
 

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Hey WarDragon dude! :)

WarDragon said:
Those were two separate comments, and you know it, dude. 3E is a perfectly serviceable, and salvageable system.

I disagree with your latter statement. The problems are far too inherent to the system to be able to be fixed while retaining the same system. Its playable but its not a good system by any means.

WarDragon said:
The problem is that they're making so many changes,

I prefer to give my money for something new rather than something merely recycled, clearly you are not.

WarDragon said:
people who still like the Great Wheel will have to rewrite half the mechanics from scratch,

What mechanics are these?

WarDragon said:
like that nonsense about all devils being humanoid, and all demons being mindless beasts.

A statement which was already debunked as nothing more than a vague generalism, not a hard and fast rule. The idea being to give Demons and Devils a better visual identity of their own.

WarDragon said:
Not to mention the new cosmology seems to be.... well, silly.

Even if its actually more a case of representing Dante's Inferno (no, not one of your outbursts dante) and thus actually more myth inspired than the Great Wheel.

I still maintain that your hatred of these items is making a problem where one never existed.

Yet its seemingly this 'imaginary' problem WotC have set out to solve as one of the biggest flaws of 3/3.5E. Go figure.

Higher numbers make the character feel more powerful,

An unfortunate false dawn.

and there is a ton of precedent in the mythology you keep touting.

Where is the mythology supporting 3/3.5E's forcing immortals to wear epic cloaks of resistance?

The fact that there's less uncertainty at higher levels.

Ultimately yes. But that still doesn't make it a desirable thing so if you can avoid it you should avoid it.

You rely on tactics instead of luck.

Except that most of the time in 3/3.5E you rely on buffs and magic items rather than any actual tactics. Fighters barely have any tactics in 3/3.5E as it is.

4 more Strength. And really, that's all some monsters are, tougher humans. No reason to go overboard on every one of them.

If thats all they are then its borderline a waste of time to have them.

No need to get snarky.

:p

I meant that their statement about "every class will have per day, per encounter, and at will abilities" seems to be throwing resource management down the crapper.

Thats because resource management has been proven terribly flawed, simply because it created a likelihood that parties will simply go home to rest up (or rod of paradise or similar) and be at full strength every single encounter.

Some designer or other was quoted as saying that a wizard who'd used up all his spell slots will still be at 80% capacity; how is that in keeping with anything we know about D&D wizards?

Past sacred cows are irrelevant. Whats fun IS relevant, and a useless wizard is no fun to play.

However, your example only highlights the previous point, since the chances are a wizard would simple rest up and regain their spells before tackling the next encounter.

The elf can never have as many hit points, and he can never get darkvision, stonecunning or be a Runesmith or Dwarven Defender. The dwarf can never be as agile, get martial proficiencies without burning a level or feat, and will always be 10 ft. slower. There's really no need to overcomplicate things more than that.

Personally I see these racial talent trees as something akin to surrogate prestige classes but without all the baggage and hardwork.

For example, a 3E fighter can be built as a hulking mass in plate mail, a dedicated weapon master, a rapier-wielding duelist, or a deadly-accurate archer. In 4E, if you don't want to stand in the front line taking hits, or don't want to specialize in a single weapon, you can't use the Fighter class.

Irrelevant. All those character styles will be catered for. Simply that they may not all be under the Fighter Class. You are worrying about nothing.

I meant in 4E. From what we've been told, there's no way to make a monster unique without rewriting it as a whole new race, vaguely based on the MM entry.

That remains to be seen.

However, in a worse case scenario you can always use a human fighter as base, give it 4 more strength and say its a gnoll fighter, since thats basically what most of the races amount to in 3/3.5E as it is.

I don't have the energy to pop the rest of your optimistic statements.

But plenty of energy for calling people idiots.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Even if its actually more a case of representing Dante's Inferno (no, not one of your outbursts dante) and thus actually more myth inspired than the Great Wheel.

I concede to the aforementioned commentary with much delight and jubilation =^.^=, for indeed I am a snerky little worm.
 



Hiya mate! :)

WarDragon said:
It seems we fundamentally disagree on what constitutes a problem in 3rd Edition, so I'm going to bow out of this debate.

Thats fair enough.

I'm probably being too optimistic, but I just don't see any flaw in the 4E reasoning. It may not live up to the hype but at least they are moving in all the right directions as far as I can tell.

As for 3rd Edition, a cursory glance over not so distant threads in ENWorld will illustrate that I am not alone in 'outing' the many problems inherent in the system.
 

Hey all! :)

Interesting snippet of 4E news today about gods.

1) Yes, we think the alignments for FR deities are certainly known to players/DMs. We're not trying to create ambiguity with the pantheon, we want you to be able to pick sides and feel confident about your decision. Whether they're widely known to characters in the world is a trickier question. For example, I suspect that deities such as Bane or Cyric must present some "redeeming qualities" to gain a wide support base of basically neutral townsfolk, commoners, etc. For example, maybe the average Zhent looks at Bane as a god of kingship and divine authority, as opposed to tyranny. But that's about as much gray as we'd want to see in that.

2) I think that in general one deity per portfolio is better. Some very broad portfolios can support a couple of overlapping deities, but even then I think each deity has a particular slant on the topic. War, destruction, and misfortune all overlap at least a little bit, but there is certainly room for Tempus, Talos, and Beshaba.

3) I'm of the opinion that if you're playing the highest-level characters possible, and you decide to rid the cosmos of an evil god, your DM should be able to craft that adventure for you. There are plenty of examples in fantasy fiction of heroes destroying gods (the Elric series springs to mind). So maybe 30th-level heroes (remember, there's a new level scale) who decide to take on Bane should be able to succeed... if they do everything right, such as questing for the right artifact ahead of time, paying attention to ancient prophecies about eclipses and people of unique ancestry, and so forth. It shouldn't ever be a "routine" adventure to take down a god, but I think it ought to be possible.

That seems to suggest:

Greater - gets own plane
Lesser - gets clerics, worshippers & temples
Demi - serves other gods

The lack of intermediate seems a return to 1st Edition. Oddly enough I was recently wondering whether certain designations were needed given the following:

Hero-deity: 31-40 (Heroic Immortal tier)
Demi-deity: 41-50 (Paragon Immortal tier)
Deity: 51-60 (Epic Immortal tier)

A different possibility might be to allow Hero-deity at 20th-level as a 10-level Prestige Class (if you have been following the recent news, Prestige Classes can only be taken at 11th or 21st).

So the following might be possible:

Disciple: 11-20
Hero-deity: 21-30
Demi-deity: 31-40
Lesser Deity: 41-50
Deity: 51-60

So the question seems to be whether we allow divinity to overlap the core levels, which seems to make sense (and thats how Ascension does it anyway).

I'll still need to see creatures like the Solar and personages like Orcus to make a better informed decision.

But any thoughts?
 

Hey U_K! :)

The lack of intermediate seems a return to 1st Edition.

I don't know if I could distinguish an intermediate deity from a lesser deity offhand anyway.

Oddly enough I was recently wondering whether certain designations were needed given the following:

Hero-deity: 31-40 (Heroic Immortal tier)
Demi-deity: 41-50 (Paragon Immortal tier)
Deity: 51-60 (Epic Immortal tier)

A different possibility might be to allow Hero-deity at 20th-level as a 10-level Prestige Class (if you have been following the recent news, Prestige Classes can only be taken at 11th or 21st).

So the following might be possible:

Disciple: 11-20
Hero-deity: 21-30
Demi-deity: 31-40
Lesser Deity: 41-50
Deity: 51-60

This is a good question but difficult until we see the power levels associated with each level. The greater the distinctions between each level the more I would favor the latter and vice versa.

My gut feeling is that the second option is more "workable" though.

What about the Sidereals and Eternals? Do you envision allocating 10 levels to each rank beyond 60th level?
 

historian said:

Hiya historian matey! :)

I don't know if I could distinguish an intermediate deity from a lesser deity offhand anyway.

I always like the distinction of Intermediate and Greater, the latter for Pantheon heads. But it works just as easily with Lesser and Greater.

This is a good question but difficult until we see the power levels associated with each level. The greater the distinctions between each level the more I would favor the latter and vice versa.

My gut feeling is that the second option is more "workable" though.

I think it is something like...

31-40 = double power per level (ie. the sum of everything gained at 31st is twice the power gained going from 29th to 30th, but while maintaining the same BAB, Saves, AC advancement)
41-50 = triple power per level
51-60 = quodruple power per level

(or possibly all the above at triple power per level, to make things simpler)

So that suggests each divine ability (if kept to the same regularity as feats) would be on average three times as powerful as a feat.

Possibly:

Odd levels = Choose Portfolio Talent
Even Levels = Gain Ability Score Boost (or swop for Divine Ability)

I'm also thinking that Disciple and Prophet would be the same thing, except that a Disciple would serve a higher power and a Prophet would be self-serving (a bit like a Cult Leader).

Similarly you could have Champion and Quasi-deity, wherein the Champion serves and the Quasi-deity does not.

What about the Sidereals and Eternals? Do you envision allocating 10 levels to each rank beyond 60th level?

I have thought about that but I am not sure what the best method is yet. Certainly the ten level structure itself has merit, but whether each will parallel previous IH designations is another matter.

The math seems to suggest that over the 30 levels each Sidereal level should be worth 10 mortal levels, with each Eternal level worth 33 mortal levels.

But I am not sure about the various Demiurge Stages, they may be redundant or merged into the 61-90 span.
 

Hey guys! :)

One interesting facet of 4th Edition I have been musing over is the minion.

Lets take the angels for example. Lets say your party is fighting a Kyriotates, a Level 43 Solo Monster, or a Level 53 Elite Monster, or a Level 63 Minion Monster. In my mind most immortals are at any given time potential solo monsters, elite monsters or minion monsters, dependant upon how high up the food chain you go. But at the same time 4E monsters are specifically (it seems) built to cater for a certain role, not multiple roles. So I think Elite will become the defacto immortal standard.

That said, if the Elohim, Malakim and Kyriotates are all Elite for their levels, what minions do they have? This seems to open up a sub-bracket of new angels.

Angelic Standard Bearers - as minions encountered of the Kyriotates
Angelic Trumpeters - as minions of Sandalphon/Ophanim
Angelic Assassins (Angels of the Hour - Sith Angels) - as minions of the Malakim (possible Koph Nia members)
etc.

...and if the angels have such minions, what of other dimensional guardians? ;)
 

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