4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[beej]

@Adslahnit: Whoah. That's a lot of stunning . I do agree with you; solos+ stunning=bad. That's why I'd rather they fight all of Thanatos than face Orcus immediately.

@U_K: Regarding the pushing/pulling. something along the lines of dwarven stability (auto-save to ignore) would probably work. Maybe give them a bonus on the saving throw based on the size difference of the two combatants.

 

[Center-of-All]

Hmmm, I think Ltheb's 'status chain' works better than your idea. Less math to do, less onerous requirements to have the PCs actually do something, plus I think you can play around with it a bit more. Something like automatically downgrading the level of the effect each round. Needs a bit more thought.

Your proposition for increased size modifiers seems to be adequate to me. Would you include more sizes above Gargantuan, though, to round out the reach levels? Or would that be too much work for not enough benefit? Either way, I honestly don't think that the game lends itself to particularly large creatures. A battlemap sems required for the game (though, to be fair, I thought the same of 3E), and creatures too large to fit on an average-sized grid might get used even less then a hypothetical post-Sidereal tier. If PCs had some sort of 'Size expansion' abilities to effectively 'shrink' the scale of the grid, however, it just might work. It'd be a bit more complex, but I think it would pay off better.

As for the shift resistance thing, I don't think it's necessary. It's an epic level fighter, let him push the thing a few squares (or prone) if he wants to. Epic level play doesn't have to make sense in that respect, it just has to be cinematic. Nothing says cinematic like the warrior pulling the beast to the ground, or sending the thing flying.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there guys!

@Adslahnit: Whoah. That's a lot of stunning . I do agree with you; solos+ stunning=bad. That's why I'd rather they fight all of Thanatos than face Orcus immediately.

@U_K: Regarding the pushing/pulling. something along the lines of dwarven stability (auto-save to ignore) would probably work. Maybe give them a bonus on the saving throw based on the size difference of the two combatants.

Sounds like a step in the right direction.

Hmmm, I think Ltheb's 'status chain' works better than your idea. Less math to do, less onerous requirements to have the PCs actually do something, plus I think you can play around with it a bit more. Something like automatically downgrading the level of the effect each round. Needs a bit more thought.

To go back to the stunning problem, how about if we decree the following:

When an Elite monster is stunned, treat it as being Dazed.

When a Solo monster is stunned, treat it as being Slowed.

Hows that for simple?

Your proposition for increased size modifiers seems to be adequate to me. Would you include more sizes above Gargantuan, though, to round out the reach levels? Or would that be too much work for not enough benefit?

I think the key is just to determine Mega Tiny and Mega Small, after that everything should fall into place.

Huge: Reach 2 or 3, Space 3
Gargantuan: Reach 3 or 4, Space 4
Mega-Tiny: Reach 6, Space 6
Mega-Small: Reach 8, Space 8
Mega-Medium: Reach 10, Space 10
Mega-Large: Reach 10 or 20, Space 20
Mega-Huge: Reach 20 or 30, Space 30
Mega-Gargantuan: Reach 30 or 40, Space 40
Giga-Tiny: Reach 60, Space 60
etc.

As for the shift resistance thing, I don't think it's necessary. It's an epic level fighter, let him push the thing a few squares (or prone) if he wants to. Epic level play doesn't have to make sense in that respect, it just has to be cinematic. Nothing says cinematic like the warrior pulling the beast to the ground, or sending the thing flying.

But should they be knocking down Godzilla as easily as they knockdown a Kobold?

 

[Center-of-All]

To go back to the stunning problem, how about if we decree the following:

When an Elite monster is stunned, treat it as being Dazed.

When a Solo monster is stunned, treat it as being Slowed.

Hows that for simple?

Works for me. Same with the reach thing.

But should they be knocking down Godzilla as easily as they knockdown a Kobold?

Yes, if he's an equivalent challenge to them. If he's not, then they shouldn't be fighting him anyway, and should be treated more like a natural disaster than a creature in terms of statblocks and such.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Works for me. Same with the reach thing.

Yes, if he's an equivalent challenge to them. If he's not, then they shouldn't be fighting him anyway, and should be treated more like a natural disaster than a creature in terms of statblocks and such.

The problem with that approach is that it sort of makes Size next to irrelevant. The flipside of which is that we might stop using size until certain levels, which I think may rob us of some interesting encounters in lower tiers, or even simply place certain monsters beyond any tier.

 

[Fieari]

I'm a big fan of the condition track method, with elites reducing one on the track, and solos reducing two. You could even give certain creatures an ability to make them resist stunning more, to have an elite that resists like a solo, and a solo where stunning does nothing until stunned twice (still get a save). Or you could do something like merely grant combat advantage below slow, or make a new condition.

 

[Center-of-All]

The problem with that approach is that it sort of makes Size next to irrelevant. The flipside of which is that we might stop using size until certain levels, which I think may rob us of some interesting encounters in lower tiers, or even simply place certain monsters beyond any tier.

True. The question is, is that problem enough to outweigh the flipsides you mentioned? I don't personally think so, and am OK with size having a limited effect on a creature. It might be prudent to ask around, though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

I'm a big fan of the condition track method, with elites reducing one on the track, and solos reducing two. You could even give certain creatures an ability to make them resist stunning more, to have an elite that resists like a solo, and a solo where stunning does nothing until stunned twice (still get a save). Or you could do something like merely grant combat advantage below slow, or make a new condition.

The problem, as I see it, with the Condition track method is that you can still reduce Orcus to a meaningless baboon, all you need is three characters capable of stunning instead of one.

True. The question is, is that problem enough to outweigh the flipsides you mentioned? I don't personally think so, and am OK with size having a limited effect on a creature. It might be prudent to ask around, though.

I don't plan on rushing into a decision one way or the other at this point.

 

[Fieari]

Well, it would take four people, not three-- two daze = slow, two slow = stun. Stun -> daze, so you three "stuns" would equal 1.5x slow. If you have four people dedicated to stunning, then in a party of five, that leaves only one to do anything about it, and hopefully there are still others hanging around.

What if, in addition to this, a solo making a saving throw ended all effects allowing a save at the same time, instead of requiring separate saves?

Also, should Knockout effects be added to the end of the condition track?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Well, it would take four people, not three-- two daze = slow, two slow = stun. Stun -> daze, so you three "stuns" would equal 1.5x slow. If you have four people dedicated to stunning, then in a party of five, that leaves only one to do anything about it, and hopefully there are still others hanging around.

Most stuns are in addition to actual physical damage though lets remember. So its not like these characters are doing nothing.

What if, in addition to this, a solo making a saving throw ended all effects allowing a save at the same time, instead of requiring separate saves?

Surely they don't make seperate saves though anyway...do they?

Usually two or three conditions simply require a single save to end, so that seems something of a non-issue.

Also, should Knockout effects be added to the end of the condition track?

I think its easy to over complicate things although you are probably right.