4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Fieari]

Here's another conversion attempt. The Medium Quintessence Elemental. I figured if Alabaster is going to reference it with his Godsend sword, I should probably have something available.

The biggest trouble I see with it is that as per the 3e IH, the Quintessence Elemental is of a significantly lower level than the deity it comes from, meaning that it won't be a significant challenge to have one appear. Perhaps the chart defining which elemental comes from what could be adjusted? Or perhaps the abilities listed could stay the same, but the size could be dropped a bit? Anyway, here we go:


Quintessence Elemental (Medium), Sundered Demigod Divinity Level 22 Skirmisher
Medium Elemental Humanoid (Divine) XP 4,150

Inititative +21 Senses Perception +11
Aura
HP 208; Bloodied 104; See Spirit Bomb
AC 36; Fortitude 34, Reflex 35, Will 33
Immune Portfolio abilities, divine
Speed fly 12

Disjoining Blow (standard; at-will) * Divine
+27 vs AC; 3d6 + 8 damage (crit 9d6 + 24), and one magic item belonging to the target has its bonus reduced by one and any magical features disabled until the end of the encounter, or until the Quintessense Elemental is defeated.

Divine Reflexes (immediate interrupt; at-will)
Upon being attacked, before the attack is resolved, the Quintessence Elemental may make any move action. If this action places the elemental out of the attack's reach, the attack automatically fails.

Spirit Bomb (upon being destroyed)
Range 10; +21 vs Will. All creatures level 20 and lower hit by the Spirit Bomb have their souls immediately cast into the void, and are incapable of being raised without a quest to retrieve it. Creatures level 21 and higher hit by the Spirit Bomb have their divinity sundered, creating another Quintessence Elemental according to the chart below, and denying them the use of their Epic Destiny and Portfolios (if any).

Str 22 (+17), Dex 27 (+19), Wis 11 (+11)
Con 24 (+18), Int 6 (+9), Cha 22 (+17)



Level 21-25, Tiny Quintessence Elemental
Level 26-30, Small Quintessence Elemental
Level 31-35, Medium Quintessence Elemental
Level 36-40, Large Quintessence Elemental
Level 41-45, Huge Quintessence Elemental
Level 46-50, Gargantuan Quintessence Elemental



The Divine Reflexes ability comes from my memory of how a quintessence elemental worked in a 3e game I ran, pre-epic. Most of the player's efforts were spent simply trying to catch the thing, since it was so fast, and they couldn't hit it, again because it was so fast. Since that's the ability I remember defining the encounter so well, I thought I'd better put it in here. (They eventually did succeed in catching it and putting it in a bottle for later use)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

I have some special plans for quintessence elementals that will be more akin to a reinvention than a conversion. They should show up in the second Gods & Monsters pdf along with the dragons, devils and a few other things.

As such your version can be considered the defacto conversion. However, a few words on that.

I think part of the problem you are having (with Level 22 not being a challenge if you were fighting a demigod) is because you are converting the numbers incorrectly or rather paralleling the numbers incorrectly.

Hero God
Prophet = 21-25, solo 12-16
Hero-deity = 26-30, solo 17-21

Demigod
Quasi-deity 31-35, solo 22-26
Demi-deity 36-40, solo 27-31

God
Lesser Deity = 41-45, solo 32-36
Greater Deity = 46-50, solo 37-41

My initial suggestion would perhaps be to make the quintessence elemental an Elite opponent (since its effectively 'half' the deity.) with a level equal to the minimum for the solo version of the deity - I think creating one for each level would be a bit pointless.

So if we sundered Orcus' (Level 33 Solo = Lesser God) divinity we would 'create' a Level 32 Elite Skirmisher.

If we sundered Baphomet's (L28 Solo = Demigod) divinity we would create a Level 27 Elite Skirmisher...and so on.

 

[beej]

Oooh! that's a very useful table, U_K!

*jots it down for fututre reference* Thanks!

 

[Alzrius]

Oooh! that's a very useful table, U_K!

*jots it down for fututre reference* Thanks!

You should see the full table.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

A tiny snippet as regards the new Size rules.

Been thinking that there would be six new sizes.

Mega x10...Castle sized monsters (like Godzilla)
Giga x1000...Mountain sized monstrousities (like Typhon)
Tera x1,000,000...Planet sized creatures (like the Alklha)

Peta x10,000,000,000...Solar System sized monsters
Exa x1E15...Galaxy

 

[Upper_Krust]

Weird thing is happening here - ENWorld is autoposting for me before I get the post finished...

Hey guys!

A tiny ramble as regards the new Size rules.

Been thinking that there would be six new sizes.

Mega x10...Castle sized monsters (like Godzilla)
Giga x1000...Mountain sized monstrousities (like Typhon)
Tera x1,000,000...Planet sized creatures (like the Alklha)

Peta x10,000,000,000...Solar System sized monsters
Exa x1E15...Galaxy sized beings
Zetta x1E21...Universe sized creatures

However, a few niggling issues and ideas.

Firstly, the exact sizes are basically going to be irrelevant beyond the secondary rules they each add to the monster.

So the whole x1E21 won't make a difference from 1E23 (which is the proper size of our universe, I was just keeping the math ordered.

1E1, 1E3, 1E6, 1E10, 1E15, 1E21.

Technically a Solar System (based on our own) would be more akin to 1E13, a Galaxy 1E18 and the Universe about 1E23 ish. I could of course forego the ordered math and just institute the above as the supposed base multipliers.

Also we could throw in a Sun sized category (1E8) though I am not sure if thats necessary.

Tying the sizes to minimum level...

Mega @ Level 41, L32 solo
Giga @ Level 51, L42 solo
Tera @ Level 61, L52 solo
Peta @ Level 71, L62 Solo
Exa @ Level 81, L72 solo
Zetta @ Level 91, L82 solo

Okay, so all thats the easy bit. However, conceptually what is a Universe in D&D? I mean is it a demiplane, a layer, a plane, a dimension (now somewhat redundant term in 4E or at least overlapping with the term plane), is it the sum of all the planes/dimensions? Is it the 8th, 9th or 10th dimension.

Also, in the past 3E HD constraints couldn't really do very large creatures and I had set the Time Lord at 999 HD. 4E doesn't really require that so I can make the Time Lords Universe sized (since they are sentient universes after all). However, I have pondering the question do I really want to...

...In the past I simply stated that when one Time Lord appeared in your Universe it did so on a much smaller scale (about 2000 feet tall), and while I certainly plan to up that (probably putting them on the Exa/Galactic scale), I still have difficulty conceptualizing one universe within another without reducing its size.

Of course the question might well be, why would one Time Lord ever need to show up in another Universe. They all inhabit the 8th dimension where they can retain 'their own size'. However I think that beyond Universal size represented within the system is ultimately futile, because its the relativity between the creature and celestial bodies that give that sense of scale. For instance, if I were to draw a Time Lord on its own it could conceivably resemble a normal person (albeit one who was the size of the Universe). However, if instead I represent them as Galaxy sized individuals fighting each other with spiral galaxy 'shields' and quasars as 'swords' it becomes a much more evocative image.

End ramble...any thoughts?

 

[Fieari]

Of course the question might well be, why would one Time Lord ever need to show up in another Universe. They all inhabit the 8th dimension where they can retain 'their own size'.

Well, we'd have to have an understanding of what Time Lords... do. I mean, besides exist. If all they do is exist in their 8th dimensional space, there's not much reason to be there, and presumably, there could be threats within universes that would force them in. In this respect, you could think of that 8th dimensional space as a "heaven", so to speak. A place where they live, but not really the place where they work.

However I think that beyond Universal size represented within the system is ultimately futile, because its the relativity between the creature and celestial bodies that give that sense of scale.

Absolutely. Of course, really big sizes are important for rules purposes... a solar system sized creature interacting with a galaxy sized creature, for instance, is somewhat of a meaningful interaction, while to a simple human both are equally incomprehensibly big.

For instance, if I were to draw a Time Lord on its own it could conceivably resemble a normal person (albeit one who was the size of the Universe). However, if instead I represent them as Galaxy sized individuals fighting each other with spiral galaxy 'shields' and quasars as 'swords' it becomes a much more evocative image.

THIS. DEFINITELY THIS. I WANT THIS. Ever since I've seen Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan, I've wanted this. Give them superstrings as whips and enormous blades made from super black holes with galaxies as shields. This is what time lords were created for, and I think 4e is the best opportunity to make playing such things actually feasible in terms of having a fun campaign. Perhaps you wouldn't play the whole game at this level, but playing as Great Old Ones who finally achieve Time Lord status in order to defeat an entire realm of existence for the last battle could be cool.

 

[Fieari]

Forgot to comment on this earlier...

I have some special plans for quintessence elementals that will be more akin to a reinvention than a conversion. They should show up in the second Gods & Monsters pdf along with the dragons, devils and a few other things.

I have faith in your ability to make these cool little things even cooler. Give them some more sparkle!

My initial suggestion would perhaps be to make the quintessence elemental an Elite opponent (since its effectively 'half' the deity.) with a level equal to the minimum for the solo version of the deity - I think creating one for each level would be a bit pointless.

If every deity is a solo, then I could see making the elemental elite, but I'm also thinking of PCs here, who are elite themselves. I would prefer ensuring that NPC or PC, the elemental is appropriate... and I don't have a -significant- problem with Solo deities having a normal level elemental.

Question though, have you considered how to handle such loss of power? I figured that just denying access to divine powers and disabling destiny abilities would be sufficient... you don't want too much bookkeeping after all.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fieari mate!

Incidently, I managed to pick up the 4E Draconomicon, Manual of the Planes and Open Grave (and a few other things) yesterday. Only had the chance to quickly peruse them (about an hour a piece) at this stage but I do really like the Draconomicon and Open Grave at first glances.

Well, we'd have to have an understanding of what Time Lords... do. I mean, besides exist. If all they do is exist in their 8th dimensional space, there's not much reason to be there, and presumably, there could be threats within universes that would force them in. In this respect, you could think of that 8th dimensional space as a "heaven", so to speak. A place where they live, but not really the place where they work.

Time Lords are aspects of the Supreme Being. Individually sentient universes.

Absolutely. Of course, really big sizes are important for rules purposes... a solar system sized creature interacting with a galaxy sized creature, for instance, is somewhat of a meaningful interaction, while to a simple human both are equally incomprehensibly big.

I'll be trying to keep the rules as simple as possible.

THIS. DEFINITELY THIS. I WANT THIS. Ever since I've seen Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan, I've wanted this. Give them superstrings as whips and enormous blades made from super black holes with galaxies as shields. This is what time lords were created for, and I think 4e is the best opportunity to make playing such things actually feasible in terms of having a fun campaign. Perhaps you wouldn't play the whole game at this level, but playing as Great Old Ones who finally achieve Time Lord status in order to defeat an entire realm of existence for the last battle could be cool.

That has been my vision of them from the start. Slightly curtailed by the minimum Hit Dice sizes in 3E (admittedly self-inflicted, but I think it still makes sense for 3E).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Forgot to comment on this earlier...

I have faith in your ability to make these cool little things even cooler. Give them some more sparkle!

Its very cool, but I won't spoil the surprise.

If every deity is a solo, then I could see making the elemental elite, but I'm also thinking of PCs here, who are elite themselves. I would prefer ensuring that NPC or PC, the elemental is appropriate... and I don't have a -significant- problem with Solo deities having a normal level elemental.

I don't necessarily think every deity will be represented as a Solo opponent. I think certainly they could, but I don't think its necessarily a good idea.

I think what might be a better idea is building them around adventures and then see what pieces fit best where. For instance if your PCs are Demigods of Level 33 (for example) then there is no point having them fight Solo versions of other Demigods who might be Solo 25 (or whatever) opponents.

So there will undoubtedly be a time and a place for Elite Gods and perhaps even Standard and Minion versions under the right circumstances.

So you probably want important deities detailed as solo monsters with less important gods dialled back a bit in the same way that Avatars and Aspects are not generally solo opponents.

Question though, have you considered how to handle such loss of power? I figured that just denying access to divine powers and disabling destiny abilities would be sufficient... you don't want too much bookkeeping after all.

One way that will help is if we have multiple versions of a god, or rather Manifestation, Avatar and Aspects.

However, in less extreme cases I would just consider the deity permanently weakened (until recovery of their quintessence).