4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

One thing that has changed is the relationship between various levels of divinity.

My imagined IH progression was for a doubling of power every divine status, so that 1 demideity is worth 2 quasi-deities or 4 hero-deities, etc.

2, 4, 8, 16, 32

However, the recent changes to v6 suggest that the relationship is more akin to 3.3 quasi-deities and 10 hero-deities.

3.3, 10, 33, 100, 333

With 4th Editions power swing using a 30-level immortal class progression you get a shift in the other direction:

2, 3.3, 4.5, 6.6, 10

ie.

A. I wanted a Greater God equal to about 32 hero-deities.

B. In actuality a Greater God is equal to about 333 hero-deities

C. 4th Edition (in the incarnation I have speculated upon) would have a Greater God equal to about 10 hero-deities.

Personally I think C is more palatable than B, because it better promotes interaction.

To turn B into A, you need to change Divine Rank as follows:

Up to Quasi-deity = same

Demi-deity = DvR 5
Lesser = DvR 7
Inter = DvR 9
Greater = DvR 12

Elder = DvR 16
Over = DvR 22
First = DvR 29

Of course this means changes to Hit Dice as well as the Divinity Templates.

For instance a Greater God would have between 60-79 Hit Dice (5 per divine rank)

 

[jedrious]

Unfortunately that doesn't help me as I am unfamiliar with SWSE.

Can you explain a bit more how these talent trees are integrated? Are they like feat trees?

Talents are similar to feat trees, except it like, let's call them variable class features, they are broken up into groups with generally 2-4 groups per class, i.e. the Soldier class has the Armor Specialist talent tree 5 talents that all build upon being beter in armor, the Brawler talent tree 5 talents making you better in melee, the Commando talent tree 7 talents all dealing with group tactics, and the Weapon Specialist talent tree 3 talents dealing with being better with a specific weapon

also avalable to Force Sensitives (and more toward what I'm discussing) are 4 special talent trees the Alter, Control, Sense and Dark Side trees each dealing with different aspects of using the force, in addition members of specific force traditions(presented in the book are Dathomiri and Jensari) with unique talents exclusive to them

another thing presented are things stronger than talents avalable to different prestige classes; Force Techniques avalable to the Force Adept, Jedi Knight and Sith Apprentice prcs are similar to talents except slightly more powerful, and Force Secrets avalable to the Force Disciple, Jedi Master and Sith Lord prcs modify force powers in fundamentaly powerful ways, the Knight level prcs get a technique every even level while like all classes get a talent every odd level(only 1 prc in the book breaks that convention), while the Master level prcs get a secret at every level past first while still gaining a talent every odd level

the exclusive talents ala the force traditions could be adapted for the portfolios while the techniques adapted for Cosmic abilities and the secrets adapted for Trancendental abilities and another tier developed for Omnific


The idea I've had is combining the different sources of divinity for each tier with the idea of each being different classes

Have the Ascended continue gaining actual Class levels using experience to determine their level, portfolio powers are available to choose instead of class talents

Levels in the Immortal class achieved through gaining Quintessence points with a class progression similar to:

Immortal

Level     Divine Rank    Special
1          1                  Disciple Traits, Divine Ability, Forge Artifacts, Portfolio Weaknesses
2          2                  Prophet Traits, Divine Ability
3          3                  Hero Deity Traits, Divine Ability
4          4                  Quasi Deity Traits, Divine Ability
5          5                  Divine Ability
6          6                  Demigod Traits, Divine Ability
7          7                  Divine Ability
8          8                  Lesser Deity Traits, Divine Ability
9          9                  Divine Ability
10        10                 Divine Ability
11        11                 Divine Ability
12        12                 Intermediate Traits, Divine Ability
13        13                 Divine Ability
14        14                 Divine Ability
15        15                 Divine Ability
16        16                 Greater Deity Traits, Divine Ability
17        17                 Overgod Ascension, Divine Ability
+1        +1                 +1 Divine Ability

Overgod Ascension: You are now capable of earning Existentiance Points and earn levels in the Sidereal class.

Sidereal

Level    Cosmic Rank   Special
1         1                  Elder One Traits, Cosmic Ability, Grow Layer
2         2                  Old One Traits, Cosmic Ability, Absorb Plane
3         3                  First One Traits, Cosmic Ability, Dominate Dimension
4         4                  Dimensional Trancendance, Cosmic Ability
+1       +1                +1 Cosmic Ability

Cosmic Rank: as Divine Rank except bonus is five times Cosmic Rank
Dimensional Trancendance: You are now capable of earning Bosonance Points and earn levels in the Eternal class.

Eternal

Level   Trancendance Rank    Special
1        1                             Demiurge Stage 1 Traits, Trancendental Ability
2        2                             Demiurge Stage 2 Traits, Trancendental Ability
3        3                             Demiurge Stage 3 Traits, Trancendental Ability
4        4                             Universal Apotheosis, Trancendental Ability
+1      +1                           +1 Trancendental Ability

Trancendance Rank: as Divine Rank except the bonus is ten times Trancendance Rank.
Universl Apotheosis: You are now capable of earning Ontologence Points and earn levels in the Omneity Lord class.

Omneity Lord

Level  Omnific Rank  Special
1       1                  Time Lord Traits, Omnific Ability, Embody Universe
+1     +1                +1 Omnific Ability, +1 Universe

Omnific Rank: as Divine Rank except the bonus is 25 times Omnific Rank.


feel free to use these classes in the 4e adaptation

{Notes}
Bosonance is derived from Bosonic in string theory representing the upper extent in how many dimensions we believe there are

Ontologence is derived from Ontology the study of existence and the basis for metaphysics
{/Notes}

 

[Anabstercorian]

I admit that 'bosonance' sounds pretty cool.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I admit that 'bosonance' sounds pretty cool.

Personally I love the word ontologence.

As regards the talent tree approach, I need to wait and see it.

What you seem to be suggesting is some sort of base immortal 'class' with portfolio based talent trees as variables. That may be a better way forward.

However, I am not really that sure about bosonance and ontologence (cool sounding though they may be) for their own sake. Its basically all quintessence to me, also I don't see a benefit to making cosmic rank (or whatever) as a multiple of divine rank, its just going to confuse.

 

[paradox42]

More kudos on the explanation and word choices here, jedrious. [initiate golf clap]

What I would suggest, if this is the preferred way to go for a 4E Immortals Handbook system, is that we/you think of the different types of entity as something fundamentally other than what has gone before. I never conclusively did this myself, until somewhere during the early stages of my 2nd Edition college game I came up with a way to explain how a being could be as far beyond a god as a god is beyond mortals.

To explain, consider that most science fiction describing entities that are godlike (or actual gods) describes them as being somehow "made" of energy the same way we humans are "made" of proteins and other molecules acting out a complex chemical dance. Sentient/sapient machines, based in silicon pathways or other computer hardware rather than biological brains like us, are still fundamentally mortal in most such stories even if they have the capability to think and act thousands of times faster than humans can. They are still limited by the physical laws of matter, and this means that they are not truly godlike even if they are capable of causing events such as the destruction of planets or suns. Beings that are just energy patterns, though, wouldn't have the limitations of matter, and would be capable of feats that can only be described as godlike- hence the reason (I suspect) that most sci-fi that concerns itself with the reality of gods postulates that they are beings of energy. Gods are "beyond" mortals because they're not beings of matter- they're beings of energy.

I began to think of this as a scale. Energy, in a way, is more fundamental than matter- yes, I'm aware that they're really two sides of the same coin, but bear with me here. Energy is free of the limitations of matter, though it has its own limitations (for example, the lightspeed limit). To go beyond an energy being to a next step, therefore, the question to answer is- What is "more fundamental" than energy? The answer I eventually came up with is that energy (and matter alike) arises as a result of fluctuations in the "quantum foam" that exists at the lowest substrate of reality as we understand it today. The quantum foam is itself a roiling fluctuation in the patterns of probability that define how matter and energy move and interact within the smallest definable zones of spacetime. Consider, then, what a being that were somehow made of similar quantum fluctuations would be capable of. It would be able to manifest any sort of matter or energy it wished, at any level it could fit within its own inscrutable limits, and do so on a time scale vastly superior even to that of beings made entirely of energy- because as we know even today, quantum interactions have no speed limit. They occur instantaneously, across literally any distance- the speed of light is not a barrier to them. Does this not sound "beyond" the energy beings that are gods, in much the same way that the gods are "beyond" mortals? A being made of quantum fluctuations is, in many respects, a living law of physics.

Thus, I have long defined the "tiers" of entity with these definitions in my games since that epiphany- and the players in my current games are aware of these definitions (in fact they played a significant part in the recent ascension of a PC). Mortals are defined by being entities whose "souls" are housed in bodies of matter; even if those bodies are technically immortal in the sense of not aging or having a set upper limit on their lifespan, the beings are still mortal because if their bodies are destroyed their minds go with them. Gods are not so limited- they are beings of energy who just form physical bodies because it's a convenient way of interacting with the rest of the universe. The loss of a physical body will annoy a god, but it doesn't really hurt it the way it would a mortal. The physical bodies a god forms for personal interaction are its "avatars-" they are not the god itself, but rather masks it wears to facilitate interaction with mortals.

Overgods- which is to say, Sidereals- are beyond even gods. They are beings formed of fluctuations in quantum probability, inhabitants of the quantum foam at the heart of everything, and they form "avatars" of energy to interact with gods the same way gods form avatars to interact with mortals. The avatars of a Sidereal are, of course, gods themselves, and thus fully capable of forming physical avatars the way any other god can- a Sidereal can thus go around disguised as an "ordinary deity" if it wishes to do so.

For the IH, to be sure, it probably isn't necessary to get this detailed- but I wanted to explain the above to illustrate my point. The system of using "points" beyond the Quintessence that an Immortal uses (which themselves are beyond the Experience that a mortal uses) is easier to explain away if we assume that it really does represent something different than what has gone before. This makes transcendence to the next stage really mean something beyond just getting more of the same, even if in the game mechanics it all works the same fundamental way.

As a final aside, I have little if any idea how to explain what a being "beyond" the Sidereals would be housed in, though saying (like UK) that it represents a sort of consciousness to the universe itself does dovetail somewhat neatly with my own previous definitions.

 

[jedrious]

thinking more on it, perhaps keeping the portfolio abilities tied into the traits of each god level as oppossed to talents would be better, that way once Epic4e is realeased you won'trun into problems if WotC decides to not give talents to epic progressions, this will also allow your system to be "Gestalted" onto their epic system since they'd use a different form of exp anyway

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey jedirious mate!

thinking more on it, perhaps keeping the portfolio abilities tied into the traits of each god level as oppossed to talents would be better, that way once Epic4e is realeased you won'trun into problems if WotC decides to not give talents to epic progressions, this will also allow your system to be "Gestalted" onto their epic system since they'd use a different form of exp anyway

I dunno. The more I think about it the more I like the talent tree idea. Its sort of a merging of the portfolios and divine/cosmic abilities (which to an extent they already are).

It also seems a bit more flexible than the current A to B portfolio templates. Although the trade off would be that you would need a base 'vanilla' Immortal Class (but then lots of Outsiders have that already I suppose).

The talent tree approach could split into 5 or 6 themes: Attack, Defence, Summoning etc. Each of which could have maybe 6 ranks.

So you could have a Level 6 Immortal with Fire Attack III, Air Defense II and War Summoning I.

It would also mean that an immortal could have anywhere from 1-30 portfolios, with the power of those portfolios dependant on the choices made.

One idea could be to tie portfolios into the classes.

For instance you can only progress in the War Portfolio for each of your Fighter levels.

So if your 30th-level character is Wizard 25th, Fighter 5th, they could only take a War Portfolio a maximum of five Immortal Levels (and the Magic Portfolio a maximum of 25 Immortal levels).

Naturally some portfolios will be open to multiple classes and some to all classes, but I think you get the idea.

But I think the key to any 4E Immortals will be the balance of power.

 

[Pssthpok]

The talent tree approach could split into 5 or 6 themes: Attack, Defence, Summoning etc. Each of which could have maybe 6 ranks.

So you could have a Level 6 Immortal with Fire Attack III, Air Defense II and War Summoning I.

It would also mean that an immortal could have anywhere from 1-30 portfolios, with the power of those portfolios dependant on the choices made.

 

[jedrious]

Hey jedirious mate!



I dunno. The more I think about it the more I like the talent tree idea. Its sort of a merging of the portfolios and divine/cosmic abilities (which to an extent they already are).

It also seems a bit more flexible than the current A to B portfolio templates. Although the trade off would be that you would need a base 'vanilla' Immortal Class (but then lots of Outsiders have that already I suppose).

The talent tree approach could split into 5 or 6 themes: Attack, Defence, Summoning etc. Each of which could have maybe 6 ranks.

So you could have a Level 6 Immortal with Fire Attack III, Air Defense II and War Summoning I.

It would also mean that an immortal could have anywhere from 1-30 portfolios, with the power of those portfolios dependant on the choices made.

One idea could be to tie portfolios into the classes.

For instance you can only progress in the War Portfolio for each of your Fighter levels.

So if your 30th-level character is Wizard 25th, Fighter 5th, they could only take a War Portfolio a maximum of five Immortal Levels (and the Magic Portfolio a maximum of 25 Immortal levels).

Naturally some portfolios will be open to multiple classes and some to all classes, but I think you get the idea.

But I think the key to any 4E Immortals will be the balance of power.

If that be the case then a slight tweaking of the immortal class, or a creation of an "Ascended" PrC(assuming PrCs are still in, havn't seen a confirmation or denial of that) either way it needs to scale indefinately, creating the eventuality of having all portfolio abilities(which would eliminate the need for the Omnific ability of having all portfolios)

 

[paradox42]

I dunno. The more I think about it the more I like the talent tree idea. Its sort of a merging of the portfolios and divine/cosmic abilities (which to an extent they already are).

d20 Modern (the origin of this approach AFAIK) displayed this quite well. Talents are like a meld between feats and class features. It is very much like what you're doing with Portfolios, except without the built-in weaknesses thing- though I suppose you could have certain weaknesses show up as the character acquires specific talents, for example getting Fire Immunity (or whatever the equivalent is in 4E) could force you to also get Cold Vulnerability. This would be a way to balance out more powerful abilities against less powerful ones, while still being at the same "rank" as you put it so as to prevent cherry-picking.

It also seems a bit more flexible than the current A to B portfolio templates.

This is, of course, the primary advantage to the talent tree approach- the main disadvantage is that talents aren't as flexible as feats. But this is where the question of how closely one wants to tie characters to archetypes gets asked- if you want to force archetypes, talents are much better than feats because not just anybody can have them. You have to become the appropriate archetype to do it. In mortal levels, the archetypes are called "classes;" once the character crosses the divide to godhood, perhaps they're called something else.

Although the trade off would be that you would need a base 'vanilla' Immortal Class (but then lots of Outsiders have that already I suppose).

This is irrelevant really. If you're using talent trees, the most important thing is deciding when the character can acquire the talents; there's no need for an actual class progression list unless you have certain generic abilities every Immortal should get at specific levels.

...That said, I just stuck my foot in my mouth since this approach would allow you to grant the powers of each stage of godhood (demi-, lesser, intermediate, etc.) while not worrying at all about what Portfolios the deity in question represents.

The talent tree approach could split into 5 or 6 themes: Attack, Defence, Summoning etc. Each of which could have maybe 6 ranks.

So you could have a Level 6 Immortal with Fire Attack III, Air Defense II and War Summoning I.

It would also mean that an immortal could have anywhere from 1-30 portfolios, with the power of those portfolios dependant on the choices made.

I think this approach will win you more converts to the Portfolio idea than the present system of absolutely gaining certain abilities at certain ranks. Why shouldn't a demideity of Fire be able to use Uncanny Fire Mastery while being completely unable to do more than basic summoning of Fire Elementals, after all? On the other side, why shouldn't that deity be able to heal from Fire damage, if it can't use Fire to attack at all (i.e. no Fire [Effect] abilities)?

One idea could be to tie portfolios into the classes.

For instance you can only progress in the War Portfolio for each of your Fighter levels.

So if your 30th-level character is Wizard 25th, Fighter 5th, they could only take a War Portfolio a maximum of five Immortal Levels (and the Magic Portfolio a maximum of 25 Immortal levels).

Do keep in mind that we already know this approach isn't all that valid in 4th Edition. Classes themselves are now being structured as a sort of amalgam of two sub-archetypes: the "power source" and the "role." Fighters in this scheme are "Martial" (power source) "Defenders" (role), Clerics are "Divine Leaders," Wizards are "Arcane Controllers," and Rogues are "Martial Strikers." There's the new Warlord class which will be the "Martial Leader," a character type who is looking a lot like the Crusader from Book of Nine Swords in the info leaked so far, and Paladin has been suggested as a "Divine Defender." This gives us some idea of what the roles really represent- Leaders, for instance, are about buffing the entire party and healing, though they apparently can do both these things in 4th Edition without using separate actions to do them in at least some cases (for instance, the Warlord probably has some attacks that heal his allies by "bolstering morale"). Bards are the obvious choice for the "Arcane Leader," though they won't be appearing in the first Player's Handbook. We also already know there's going to be a new class (also not appearing in the first PHB) called the Swordmage, which is the "Arcane Defender." The Swordmage is a character who is actually a warrior, but who uses magic to fight better rather than depending on tools like armor (one of the talents mentioned for this class is a constant Mage Armor-like effect).

So tying all of this in to Portfolios, it makes more sense IMO to tie them to the roles and/or the power sources, rather than specific classes. Why shouldn't a Paladin (the Divine Defender) be able to take War just as easily as a Fighter (the Martial Defender)? For that matter, why should the Swordmage be left out of that- he's a warrior, isn't he? And why limit Magic to the Wizard, when the Bard and Swordmage clearly depend on it just as much?

One other avenue this approach potentially opens up is that of making four Immortal classes, one for each role. So if you're the party tank, you'll want to become a Warrior Deity, whereas if you're the mage you'll want to become a Divine Sage. Those are just off-the-top-of-my-head names, of course- no reason to use them if (or more likely when) better names are suggested.

But I think the key to any 4E Immortals will be the balance of power.

Balance is, of course, the crux of the whole matter, but we do have to also ask- balance between what? Do you mean balance between different divine ranks (in the old sense), or balance between Immortals and mortals, or what?