4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[historian]

Hey U_K!

I wonder is Orcus in the book, or the Aspect of Orcus? Very interesting. Also we may get to see the Aspect of Asmodeus...which would be very cool.

I'm drawing from rough memory here so I don't want to go overboard but I seem to recall that the design team confirmed that Asmodeus (and his aspect?) would not be in the MM.

I have printed out some of the monster stats just to get a handle on things.

I suspect my future 4E work will encompass 21st Epic Tier and upwards.

I have been thinking certain monsters would fall into the Epic Tier, like some Abominations.

21-30 Lesser Abominations (Anakim, Phane etc.)
31-40 Greater Abominations (Amilictli, Xixecal etc.)
41-50 Lesser Entities (Gargouille, Zamzumim etc.)
51-60 Greater Entities (Hekatonkeres, Cogent etc.)
61-70 Lesser Primordials (Trithemian, Koilon etc.)
71-80 Greater Primordials (Alklha, Magog etc.)
81-90 Lesser Anomalies (Kalagni, Trigunas etc.)
91-100 Greater Anomalies (Infinitaur, Lipika etc.)

That's very cool.

How does that parallel your system of divine ranks? I could probably figure but am lazy.

On a related note, Massawyrm in his Part 2 review suggests that XP will be a linear proxy for power level. In other words four 100XP creatures = one 400XP creature = two 200XP creatures.

He also suggests it will scale perfectly. Perhaps the 4e design team has taken your musings on CR to heart.

If we assume this is the case then 4e Surtur (for example) should be roughly 1.4 million experience points while your run of the mill Monad should be worth approximately 98 million experience points.

I am ever so curious as to how this has been pulled off and how it works.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

I'm drawing from rough memory here so I don't want to go overboard but I seem to recall that the design team confirmed that Asmodeus (and his aspect?) would not be in the MM.

Personally I think they made such a big brouhaha about Levistus in Worlds & Monsters that we will see him there somewhere along with Orcus.

That's very cool.

How does that parallel your system of divine ranks? I could probably figure but am lazy.

Demi-god = 31-40
(Lesser) God = 41-50
Greater God = 51-60
Elder God/Old One = 61-70
Proto-god/First One = 71-80
Demiurge = 81-90
Time Lord = 91-100

On a related note, Massawyrm in his Part 2 review suggests that XP will be a linear proxy for power level. In other words four 100XP creatures = one 400XP creature = two 200XP creatures.

Yes it all seems very straightforward.

He also suggests it will scale perfectly. Perhaps the 4e design team has taken your musings on CR to heart.

Yes I have noticed a few similarities in the math, but I'll just chalk that up to great minds thinking alike.

If we assume this is the case then 4e Surtur (for example) should be roughly 1.4 million experience points while your run of the mill Monad should be worth approximately 98 million experience points.

Surtur (56th Level Solo Brute?) would be worth 7,168,000 XP in the 4E system.

Although the question arises. Is Surtur a Level 56 Solo Monster, Level 61 Elite Monster, Level 65 Standard Monster or Level 73 Minion?

I'm thinking he would be Level 56 Solo monster, while his Avatar would be a Level 44 Elite Monster (and alternately a Level 56 Minion Monster). The Aspect of Surtur would be Level 32 Elite Monster (and alternately a Level 44 Minion Monster).

I am ever so curious as to how this has been pulled off and how it works.

How what works?

 

[historian]

Hey Dude!

Personally I think they made such a big brouhaha about Levistus in Worlds & Monsters that we will see him there somewhere along with Orcus.

Let's hope you are right.

Demi-god = 31-40
(Lesser) God = 41-50
Greater God = 51-60
Elder God/Old One = 61-70
Proto-god/First One = 71-80
Demiurge = 81-90
Time Lord = 91-100

Now there you go again with new terminology.

What in the world is a "Proto-god?" You must give me an example.

Yes I have noticed a few similarities in the math, but I'll just chalk that up to great minds thinking alike.

Hopefully they will cite you?

Surtur (56th Level Solo Brute?) would be worth 7,168,000 XP in the 4E system.

That would mean Surtur = 398 Pit Fiends in 4e. I don't have a problem with this at all, but in 3.X (although I am working off the v4 document) he would only = 79 Pit Fiends.

Oh yeah, that whole CR/EL relationship has changed hasn't it?

Although the question arises. Is Surtur a Level 56 Solo Monster, Level 61 Elite Monster, Level 65 Standard Monster or Level 73 Minion?

I hope, like some others, that all four versions will ultimately be represented and that the design transition between the four alternatives will be straightforward and seamless.

How what works?

Power level compatibility in a nutshell, including the aforementioned example (Surtur as Solo, Elite, etc.).

I'm worried about the law of diminishing marginal returns kicking in. If the design is such where one hundred 100XP critters are the same as one 10,000XP critter then they will have really, really done something.

Not to mention making the 4th Edition IH about 1,000 times easier for you.


BTW, has anyone mentioned to Dante that 4e Fey are slotted to be much "edgier" than their 3.X counterparts?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Dude!

Howdy!

Now there you go again with new terminology.

What in the world is a "Proto-god?" You must give me an example.

Proto-god is just another way of saying First One but with the word God in there somewhere.

So beings like Aditi and Zurvan would be Proto-gods.

Hopefully they will cite you?

LOL!

That would mean Surtur = 398 Pit Fiends in 4e. I don't have a problem with this at all, but in 3.X (although I am working off the v4 document) he would only = 79 Pit Fiends.

Oh yeah, that whole CR/EL relationship has changed hasn't it?

Yes it has changed, and v4 is wrong (as is v5).

I hope, like some others, that all four versions will ultimately be represented and that the design transition between the four alternatives will be straightforward and seamless.

I don't really see the point of four versions of every monster. You don't have something designed as a minion represented as a solo monster. You have to take their roles into account.

Power level compatibility in a nutshell, including the aforementioned example (Surtur as Solo, Elite, etc.).

You just have to use some common sense I think.

I'm worried about the law of diminishing marginal returns kicking in. If the design is such where one hundred 100XP critters are the same as one 10,000XP critter then they will have really, really done something.

Not to mention making the 4th Edition IH about 1,000 times easier for you.

Exactly.

BTW, has anyone mentioned to Dante that 4e Fey are slotted to be much "edgier" than their 3.X counterparts?

I think Fey could be the interesting surprise package of 4th Edition, really looking forward to reading about them...and then taking what I have read and puytting my own epic spin on them of course.

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Let me clarify that my expectation is not four versions of every monster, i.e. minion, soldier, elite, solo, etc., for every concept. That's merely redundant at higher levels. My inference is that the "minion" classification has been introduced primarily to introduce variety for lower-level players.

Rather I am hoping that the XP system as a proxy for CR is as sound as I am led to believe by what I read. If so this would obviate the need to stat every creature's representation.

My guess is that, after level 30 and perhaps sooner, the quantity of minions and soldiers will diminish such that you would substitute an "elite" or "solo" in their place.

The effect on system and gameplay leaves me curious?

The answer to the question regarding Surtur though is that he will almost certainly be, at the very least, an "elite." My overwhelming feeling is that he, like virtually all iconic characters, will be "Solo" with a capital "S."

However, this wouldn't mean that Surtur couldn't be a "minion" equivalent if XP works throughout.


BTW have you noticed the "power curve" creep. I think you have XP close to nailed and, if so, Surtur would be equivalent to roughly 40,000 pit fiends.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

Let me clarify that my expectation is not four versions of every monster, i.e. minion, soldier, elite, solo, etc., for every concept. That's merely redundant at higher levels. My inference is that the "minion" classification has been introduced primarily to introduce variety for lower-level players.

I thought it was to allow for larger numbers of opponents in the encounter.

Rather I am hoping that the XP system as a proxy for CR is as sound as I am led to believe by what I read. If so this would obviate the need to stat every creature's representation.

My guess is that, after level 30 and perhaps sooner, the quantity of minions and soldiers will diminish such that you would substitute an "elite" or "solo" in their place.

Thats what I initially thought, but now I am not so sure. I think it would be interesting to have certain gods have generic minions (ie. bodyguards) to be encountered with them.

I mean you don't want to have to run Thanatos (for instance) with half a dozen unique Oinodaemons (former elites, now minions) because they'll just have too many powers to keep track of.

So better to have maybe Thanatos and 13 Necroloth (failed Oinioloth) minions, or some other combination of maybe Thanatos and 1-3 different monster types. I think unique characters should always (where possible) be elites, so you wouldn't want to make a habit of running more than two at a atime in any given encounter.

So rather than have all immortal encounters made up of former Solo and Elite monsters better to have some minions and some standard monsters at those levels as well.

The effect on system and gameplay leaves me curious?

The answer to the question regarding Surtur though is that he will almost certainly be, at the very least, an "elite." My overwhelming feeling is that he, like virtually all iconic characters, will be "Solo" with a capital "S."

However, this wouldn't mean that Surtur couldn't be a "minion" equivalent if XP works throughout.

True but using Surtur as a minion (without a newer version of his statblock) means you have a minion with a half a dozen different abilities. Now factor that x12 or whatever (for 12 unique minions and one Elite monster) and you have possibly way too many things to keep track of.

Its notable that in the Encounter groups released so far (for Bodaks and BoneClaws) that they tend to have 3 different monster types.

Boneclaw encounter:

2 Boneclaws, 1 Lich, 1 Shield Guardian

Bodak Encounter:

2 Bodak Reavers, 1 Cambion Hellfire Magus, 2 Slaughter Wights.

BTW have you noticed the "power curve" creep. I think you have XP close to nailed and, if so, Surtur would be equivalent to roughly 40,000 pit fiends.

How do you get that? I thought it was a few hundred myself, you simply divide the bigger XP total by the lesser one.

 

[historian]

You're right on the math; Surtur = 398 Pit Fiends.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

Was wondering about what sort of levels conversion of 3.5 Immortals Handbook monsters would be in 4E. My own conversion process seems to yield the following:

Amilictli = Level 30 Solo Brute
Anakim = Level 23 Elite Brute and Level 35 Minion Brute
Gibborim = Level 29 Elite Brute and Level 41 Minion Brute
Odium = Level 26 Elite Controller
Sadim = Level 20 Elite Lurker

I have a few others but that gets you the general gist of it. Neutronium Golem seems in and around 75th level.

 

[Pssthpok]

It seems hasty to assume you know enough of the system to give both Minion and Elite levels for the same monsters.

 

[GQuail]

It seems hasty to assume you know enough of the system to give both Minion and Elite levels for the same monsters.

These are my thoughts as well - to be honest, about most of this process. I mean, this is a fun little bit of theorizing, I'm sure - but we're flying pretty blind at the moment as to what even a level 5 or 10 encounter looks like, let alone these high numbers - and we don't entirely know what a level 30 core rules PC can do, which makes planning for what their higher level versions can do all the higher.

Although now the core text of Ascension is finished, I have less reason to whinge about the activity on this thread. ;-)