4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[historian]

Hey U_K!

I'm not as worried about limiting the number of options as I am the quality, balance and overall "appropriateness" of those options. Whether I use all of them, etc. Candidly most 3.X monsters I recall had only one or two attack variations that were really "combat efficient" in a customary forum.

In other words, I would rather have 5 to 6 options I fully explored rather than having 50 options of which I only find 1 or 2 useful 80% of the time.


The weight of what I've read absolutely suggests that PCs will be able to challenge deities.

However, I roughly remember reading a developer comment that Asmodeus would not join Orcus in the MM because the former was a "god." I think all that was meant is that we should anticipate a supplement outside the MM anthology that details "gods."

I'm guessing, and only guessing, that Orcus' inclusion in the MM versus Asmodeus' exclusion has more to do with respective origins rather than power level?

Curiously though I have come to regard Orcus as a deity.

 

[Anabstercorian]

The powers that are relevant to an encounter are usually fairly distinct from powers that are available strategically. All you need to separate them is a one-minute casting time, and using them in tactical time is completely impractical. So it's easy for gods to have a wide breadth of strategic powers, so long as their tactical powers are more limited.

Frankly, I think a one minute 'casting time' for most divine powers makes them more interesting - undeniably mighty, yet less unstoppably undefeatable.

 

[historian]

Hopefully we'll see some open-ended ritual options for the strategic stuff.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Some interesting stuff on the 4E Rogue today.

The big surprise is that Con Score now adds to hit points once, rather than Con mod each level. I think this is a vast improvement. Its also starting to look like the Pit Fiend is a lot tougher than we initially envisioned.

Expect immortals to have significantly lower hit points. The Pit Fiend looks to have about 12 per Hit Dice (plus Con Score and starting bonus?), while the Ancient Red Dragon (assuming 1000+ hp and 26-30th level) would seem to have something akin to 35 per Hit Dice.

My guess is that elite monsters get double standard hit dice (presumably 6/level for standard Soldier types). While Solo monsters get quintuple (possibly 7/level for standard brutes?).

e.g. Pit Fiend: Base 11 (Soldier?) + [26 x 6 (Soldier) x2 (Elite)] + 27 (Con Score) = 11 + 312 + 27 = 350

e.g. Ancient Red Dragon: Base 14 (Brute?) + [27 x 7 (Brute) x5 (Solo)] + 50 (Con Score?) = 14 + 955 + 50 = 1019

e.g. Spined Devil: Base 8 (Skirmisher?) + [6 x 4 (Skirmisher?)] + 15 (Con Score) = 8 + 24 + 15 = 47

e.g. Ice Archon: Base 9 (?) + [18 x 5 (?)] + (18 Con Score) = 9 + 90 + 18

The Base totals in the above examples seem a bit iffy, but the premise of multiplying hit points for elite and solo monsters seems plausible.

Lurker +3/Level...?
Controller +4/Level...?
Skirmisher +5/Level (Going by Rogue)
Soldier +6/Level...?
Brute +7/Level...?

As far as I can tell, most 'gods' will be 'Elite' types, while certain monstrous gods (I'm thinking specifically those with no artifacts) will be 'Solo' threats.

Thor Level 50 Elite Brute
14 + 700 + 60 (Con?) = 774 hp

Demogorgon Level 50 Solo Brute
14 + 1750 + 60 (Con?) = 1824 hp

Interesting dynamic.

Given that we know Orcus is in the Monster Manual, he would either be something like:

Level 30 Elite Brute (Leader)
14 + 420 + 40 (Con?) = 474 hp

Or

Level 30 Solo Brute (Leader)
14 + 1050 + 40 (Con?) = 1104 hp

My guess is perhaps something close to the former but designed to be encountered with multiple lieutenants (Balors & Liches for instance?). But it will be very interesting to see how it pans out. Personally I would have Orcus perhaps Level 45 Elite.

 

[dante58701]

4th Edition is not Dungeons and Dragons. They can call it what they like...but it just isn't.

They wuss out the NPC's and resultantly have to wuss out the PC's. This is not a good strategy...it's a massive step backwards in creative design.

 

[Khuxan]

4th Edition is not Dungeons and Dragons. They can call it what they like...but it just isn't.

They wuss out the NPC's and resultantly have to wuss out the PC's. This is not a good strategy...it's a massive step backwards in creative design.

1e Lolth had 66hp.

These numbers are only meaningful in relation to one another. In 4e, a pit fiend has 350hp and a 25th-level rogue 146hp. You'd still complain if the pit fiend had 750hp and a 25th-level rogue 292hp - even though their stats wouldn't be 'wussed out'.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I've been throwing together a lot of gritty, low magic/high realism type systems for my low level campaigns to try out, and one thing that I find fine is the idea of Con only adding to HP once. This means that HP scales linearly, as should damage. Ergo, the power curve will remain relatively constant after all the key abilities are gained (like fireball). If a rogue gets 5 HP a level, and Fireball does 1d6 per level, (assuming it isn't capped) the fireball will take away half to one quarter of his life. (Except for evasion and improved evasion, which makes it 1/4 to none)
Which bodes well for epic game design - as long a being a god or a cosmic entity or whatever doesn't give you anything but a suit of level-scaled powers, progressions go on infinitely without a hitch. If a character did around ~50 damage a round at level 30, and lets say Orcus has ~1000 HP even, then it takes a party of 4 about 5 rounds to win.
Wanna play level 90? All the values should be 3x higher. (150 dmg/rnd, lvl 90 monster ~3000 HP)
Wanna play level 9000? All the values should be 300x higher. (15000 dmg/rnd, lvl 300 monster ~300000 HP)
Barring the benefits of divinity, the scale remains unbroken (if a bit uninspired) forever. Which may be the only weakness of the system: You can't really make any ability better than any other if scaling is involved; its just better. If a 4E Immortals book had Negative Energy Blast doing 1d6 per level, and the Fire blast doing 1d20 per level, if theres not some benefit that negative energy has over fire. (Other than fire resistance being more common) then I'll pick the fire one flat out. But if you said that the negative energy blast did damage that couldn't be healed this encounter, then suddenly this is a tough choice, despite one being obviously more effective.

 

[Pssthpok]

nm.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

4th Edition is not Dungeons and Dragons. They can call it what they like...but it just isn't.

They wuss out the NPC's and resultantly have to wuss out the PC's. This is not a good strategy...it's a massive step backwards in creative design.

Your disagreement makes no actual sense. All power is relative (As Khuxan already mentioned). I admit that initially I believed the Pit Fiend was too weak, but I was basing that on certain 3E paradigms. Clearly now we can see the 4E Pit Fiend is helluva tough when compared to 4E characters.

The flatlining of hit points is a great idea as it keeps the figures to a much more manageable level. It also means you don't have to upscale damage to counter massive hit point hikes, which then makes physical interaction utterly meaningless. Couple the lower hit points (and all round lower math like BAB) with potentially lower immortal levels and I think 4E will be a lot more playable over a longer spread of power.

So just because 4E Odin may only be Level 60 with 800 hit points doesn't mean hes relatively less powerful than 3.5E Odin with 118 Levels and 5000 hp.

If anything lower numbers means you concentrate less on the math itself and more on the 'interesting' powers and special abilities (those that 'do' something, rather than just add math). So in many ways its more creative, not less.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Ltheb mate!

I've been throwing together a lot of gritty, low magic/high realism type systems for my low level campaigns to try out, and one thing that I find fine is the idea of Con only adding to HP once. This means that HP scales linearly, as should damage. Ergo, the power curve will remain relatively constant after all the key abilities are gained (like fireball).

Agreed - its a much more elegant system.

If a rogue gets 5 HP a level, and Fireball does 1d6 per level, (assuming it isn't capped) the fireball will take away half to one quarter of his life. (Except for evasion and improved evasion, which makes it 1/4 to none)

I think they have stated that in 4E Fireball won't be 1d6 per level.

Judging by the Rogue damage, I think we can expect much lower damage from area affect spells. Since a Striker deals more damage to single targets than Controllers (who deal lower damage but to a greater number of targets).

So if a L30 Rogue is dealing maybe 50 damage to a single target (or more on a crit) then I cannot see a Fireball dealing more than that.

Which bodes well for epic game design - as long a being a god or a cosmic entity or whatever doesn't give you anything but a suit of level-scaled powers, progressions go on infinitely without a hitch. If a character did around ~50 damage a round at level 30, and lets say Orcus has ~1000 HP even, then it takes a party of 4 about 5 rounds to win.

Well of course even if you average 50 damage per round when you hit, you might not hit every time, so I can see a fight versus Orcus (or indeed fights in general) lasting a few more rounds in 4E. Remember also that its designed to have encounters with multiple opponents, while solo monsters are designed to be as tough as multiple opponents. I'd say 8-10 rounds will be the standard.

Wanna play level 90? All the values should be 3x higher. (150 dmg/rnd, lvl 90 monster ~3000 HP)
Wanna play level 9000? All the values should be 300x higher. (15000 dmg/rnd, lvl 300 monster ~300000 HP)
Barring the benefits of divinity, the scale remains unbroken (if a bit uninspired) forever.

Was the math ever inspiring I wonder? It seems to me that 4E will be more like 1E power only without the caps.

I am also pondering the sanity of anything over 100 Levels in 4E. Thats not to say we can't have Time Lords, but simply that its always going to be best to condense the math as much as possible.

Unlike 3.5E where we have (via version 5 of the CR/EL system) a scaling system based on multipliers (ie. The party can fight something 1.5 times (or x2) more powerful than themselves) I think 4E will have a more static scaling with perhaps coverage of about 20 effective levels. By effective levels I mean the difference between a Level 30 Minion and a Level 30 Solo monster may be effectively 20 levels even if they are both level 30...and I am just guesstimating numbers here.

So I think Level 9000 may just be an irrelevance. Much better to have everything taper to a point (say Level 100) and then flesh everything out with cosmic, transcendental and omnific powers rather than ever inflating math.

Which may be the only weakness of the system: You can't really make any ability better than any other if scaling is involved; its just better. If a 4E Immortals book had Negative Energy Blast doing 1d6 per level, and the Fire blast doing 1d20 per level, if theres not some benefit that negative energy has over fire. (Other than fire resistance being more common) then I'll pick the fire one flat out. But if you said that the negative energy blast did damage that couldn't be healed this encounter, then suddenly this is a tough choice, despite one being obviously more effective.

By better, you mean higher math. I don't think 4E is as much about the math as it is about ideas and tactical applications of powers. Certainly I think its going to be more a case of powers doing x, y and z rather than dealing x3 damage.

You noted one example, the ability to heal damage versus raw damaging power.