4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Anabstercorian]

Howdy dante dude!

Why do you bother communicating with this guy?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anabstercorian!

Why do you bother communicating with this guy?

I am one of the worlds greatest living optimists and I like to think that dante doesn't mean to be so terse, he just cannot help his enthusiasm getting the better of him sometimes.

 

[Khuxan]

One minor point on this is that the 4E Spined Devil (6th-level Skirmisher) has Fire Resistance 20. So if even lesser devils have that amount its a safe bet most if not all (Ice Devils?) have fire resistance that allows them to work in tandem with the Pit Fiend without getting burnt.

Though that said you would think Auras could be switched on or off.

We know the aura only affects enemies, so it's not a problem for the pit fiend's allies. I was thinking more of a pit fiend interrogating an enemy spy. Also, I can imagine there are times - tempting mortals, negotiating with others - that the pit fiend would prefer to go without a 50-foot circle of flame.

 

[mostlyharmless]

It cannot be used while unarmed. I am curious, though - why are you not too keen on it?

Well, granted I don't have the specifics yet, but isn't being a frenzy a bit more of a chaotic trait than a lawful one? I mean yeah, pit fiends have tempers, but they always came across to me as careful planners first and foremost, not ones to fly off the handle.
I guess it just kinda looks like Barbarian Rage - Fiendish Version to me.

To the best of my knowledge, Phlegethos is the hottest plane of Hell. Now, there are places in Phelegethos which are hot enough to damage a pit fiend - any pool of lava, for example - but I think it's reasonable enough that if a pit fiend goes swimming in lava it should die (no save!).

Seriously? Poor Fierna won't be able to take magma baths with her pit fiend lovers anymore then.

I, personally, find it incredibly devilish to sacrifice your own minions - that strikes me as the kind of thing any evil mastermind does.

True, but it just sees like kind of a waste to do that when instead they can command their armies to distract the do-gooders so they can escape when the battle is going badly.

But it is an ability that will probably never be used in combat, and that doesn't fit the flavour of the pit fiend as a master of devils. I would prefer him/her to command devils - as he/she does in 3e and 4e.

Fair enough.

The 3e pit fiend alone can roll up to 16 dice on a full attack. That does take up a lot of time at the table.

Well, I can see where if someone really felt inconvenienced by that then they would feel the change was necessary, but to me it's just not something I can get excited about. *shrugs*

When I said a mace was more devastating than a claw, I was assuming that was the case because otherwise the pit fiend would fight with its claws not its weapon.

I would be ridiculous if it was less, otherwise the mace would be a meaningless trinket.

True, but Dante was claiming that extra hit points were meaningless. In fact, they're not - the frail wizard is even more powerful if he had a load of hit points along with his enviable arsenal.

Possible, it depends on how many there are. I'm thinking he's probable also considering that when making characters, some people are more than happy to sacrifice a few extra hit points
in order to get something else that will more than make up for it.
Just an idea.

I can't wait for 4th Ed.

It's gonna come out at my local gaming store, I'll buy it and start playing. I'll probably like it because I've liked 90% of what I've read so far.

If it makes you happy then good for you.

[Others], however, will kick and cry and bitch and libel people who do so. [They] also won't buy the books - though [they] may download the pdfs, just so [they're] not completely in the dark when [they] tries to persist in caustic, uneducated, no-frame-of-reference, cheap-shot tactics of anti-4E argument.

I'm not into 4e for a variety of different reasons, but I don't feel that I'm in the dark due to lack of pdf's.

Then UK will start designing in the new rules set and [others], thank the frakkin gods, will have that much less in common with people of my disposition. We can separate the wheat from the chaff around here and get back to interesting discussions, rather than this sort of childish "I'm more 'old school' than you, so you're in the wrong" bullcrap.

Like I said: I can't wait.

I, sir, have never had any affiliation or association with any grain products whatsoever. I just am not excited about 4e and don't see the need to spend money on it.

 

[Khuxan]

Well, granted I don't have the specifics yet, but isn't being a frenzy a bit more of a chaotic trait than a lawful one? I mean yeah, pit fiends have tempers, but they always came across to me as careful planners first and foremost, not ones to fly off the handle.
I guess it just kinda looks like Barbarian Rage - Fiendish Version to me.

The name is perhaps regrettable, but the pit fiend's frenzy does not involve a lack of control or discipline. Think of it more like a monk's flurry of blows.

Seriously? Poor Fierna won't be able to take magma baths with her pit fiend lovers anymore then.

Unless:
1) She performs a ritual.
2) She has control over her domain and can make the lava not scalding.
3) She has pit fiends that REALLY love her.
EDIT: 4) Lava does less damage in 4e.

A pit fiend will still last five rounds (on average) in a lava bath.

True, but it just sees like kind of a waste to do that when instead they can command their armies to distract the do-gooders so they can escape when the battle is going badly.

If their army is close to death, it might not provide that great a distraction anyway. The pit fiend also has a per encounter ability that lets it move its minions - it can use them to block his retreat. Also, one or two minions could be near to death - necessitating the use of this power - without the battle having been lost.

 

[Pssthpok]

I, sir, have never had any affiliation or association with any grain products whatsoever. I just am not excited about 4e and don't see the need to spend money on it.

[whisper]wasn't talkin' about you, sir. [/whisper]

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I got Worlds & Monsters in the post yesterday. Already read it.

Some thoughts: The world art is totally gorgeous. Levistus (Archduke of Hell) may be in the Monster Manual along with Orcus. The Atropal may be in the Monster Manual, which suggests at least some abominations are Level 30 or less (which was what I was working to anyway...been seperating them into Lesser Abominations and Greater Abominations).

Regarding the new Dimensional setup, I really like the changes. The multiple infinite planes of the great wheel were just too confusing. Having divine realms continent/world size is a lot more workable (and closer to what I assumed where the sizes anyway).

How does that parallel the IH Kosmology.

Entropy = Shadowfell
Prime = World
Old Transitive = Feywild
Elemental = Elemental Chaos
Spirit = Astral Plane (new)
Far Place = Far Realm

So pretty straightforward. Higher Dimensions untouched of course.

The changes to monsters I am all in favour of, in fact my design ethos for the Bestiary was almost exactly that of 4E (except I still added all the 3E excess baggage like dozens of spell-like abilities and so forth).

Absolutely loving the changes to Angels, can't wait to add my own twist to IH Angels. Great that they are now potential villains.

Asmodeus as a god...always was as far as I was concerned.

Interesting to see how powerful Orcus is in the Monster Manual. I can't see him beyond Level 30 solo Brute (Leader), and I still need to learn more about the relationship between minion/standard/elite/solo to better gauge things. Intrigued to see the difference between a Level 26 Elite (such as the Pit Fiend) and a Level 30 solo monster such as (potentially) Orcus.

Aberrations as natives of the Far Realm. Already suggested it in the Bestiary.

Fomorians as the rulers of the Feywild is also very interesting, recently bought myself the Slaine: Book of Inavsions (Volumes 1-3) Graphic Novels. Lots of great ideas for epic campaigns in there, where the Fomors are the main antagonists.

Anyone else own it or have any thoughts on the above?

 

[Fieari]

Have you considered the Four Horsemen as Angels instead of Daemons? Given that Daemons have pretty much been cut, and their former ranks added to either the devils or demons, and yet the horsemen seem far more specific than either...

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Have you considered the Four Horsemen as Angels instead of Daemons? Given that Daemons have pretty much been cut, and their former ranks added to either the devils or demons, and yet the horsemen seem far more specific than either...

Honestly the horsemen don't really seem like demons, devils, daemons, or angels. (To me) They seem more like unique entities. Their generally evil motives fit well with daemons, but shifting them to one of the other three camps puts a spin on their role in the universe.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

Weirdly enough, late last night as I was watching some hokum horror movie I was doing some brainstorming that involved the 4E interepretaions of the Horsemen.

I am a tad upset to see Daemons folded into Demons, I suggested (a few weeks ago before I saw Worlds & Monsters) that perhaps the Daemons would be something to do with the Shadowfell. With the entropic (and thus wasting) nature of that plane/dimension contributing to the disease ridden nature of the more powerful Daemon Masters.

The idea of fallen Angels, not corrupted by Evil (as with the devils), but instead by Entropy (Half-Umbrals?) is an interesting one.

One thing I still keep noticing with 4E is that its (potentially) tricky to set up adventures if you don't have enough relevant monsters of each level (or at least a fairly tight level spread).

For instance, lets say we wanted to create a 10 encounter adventure for Thanatos (Horsemen of Death) Realm. Lets say Thanatos is a Level 55 Elite Soldier (Leader). That seems to suggest we need a load of relevant monsters in and around the Level 55 Mark, whether they be solo monsters, elite, standard or minions.

Looking at the 4E Pit Fiend it seems as though WotC are creating a load of new devil types.

So I think a lot of 4E monster design will need to be based around encounter design. You can't just design an elite or standard or minion monster in a design 'limbo'. You have to think of who they will be associating with.

So from that perspective I think breaking down future Bestiaries into smaller but more associated chunks is a good idea that will help create 4E encounters/adventures.