4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Pssthpok]

So I think a lot of 4E monster design will need to be based around encounter design. You can't just design an elite or standard or minion monster in a design 'limbo'. You have to think of who they will be associating with.

So from that perspective I think breaking down future Bestiaries into smaller but more associated chunks is a good idea that will help create 4E encounters/adventures.

Good point, and good solution.

I wonder however if there will be a sort of matrix that will show at what level a solo monster becomes an elite, or a standard, or a minion.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Good point, and good solution.

I wonder however if there will be a sort of matrix that will show at what level a solo monster becomes an elite, or a standard, or a minion.

While I hope this will happen, I don't think it is designed like that. I believe (From what I have read) that Solo Monsters, for example, just have more actions then everyone else. (Like more free-action abilities and the like) The Solo Encounter dragon they described seemed to have half a dozen powers, with a good half of them usable any time. There is no way you could run the dragon as a Minion with like 8 of them in one fight, because it would be a bookkeeping mess (bringing you back to square 1 aka 3E).

What they might do is write out what the mechanical differences are between Monster 'classes'. IE They might note that Solo Monsters should have a few free action type powers but minions should not have more than one power. So you could 'convert' the Ancient Dragon into a Minion for your super high level party, but it would just be Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine OR a breath weapon each round. No crazy immediate action effects or anything.

Still, theres only a couple more months 'till we know for sure.

 

[Pssthpok]

You're probably close to the reality of it; we'll see.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Guys!

Good point, and good solution.

I wonder however if there will be a sort of matrix that will show at what level a solo monster becomes an elite, or a standard, or a minion.

As Ltheb mentions, the way 4E is designed it doesn't really seem to work that way.

Can you convert a solo dragon or similar creature into a minion of a higher level? You would like to think so, otherwise you could never have Pit Fiend minions accompanying Asmodeus (for example).

What I think you will be able to easily do is raise the level of same type monsters simply by upping the math. So you could easily convert a Level 21 Minion into a Level 31 Minion, or a Level 26 Elite into a Level 36 Elite, but not change something thats Elite into a Minion and vice versa.

That to me is one half of the intriguing puzzle. The other half being the amount of monsters needed (due to the fact that more monsters are now preferred in encounters).

 

[dante58701]

The other half being the amount of monsters needed (due to the fact that more monsters are now preferred in encounters).

As if that alone isn't a logistical nightmare.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

As if that alone isn't a logistical nightmare.

I don't think its as much a logistical nightmare as it is a potential creative nightmare. But we'll have to wait and see how 4E handles this.

 

[historian]

I am very curious about the interplay between level and "encounter type" (minion to boss).

The prevailing idea seems to be that whatever "encounter type" you are you stay although you can move around level wise.

From a design feasibility standpoint that seems to be the case. For instance I can't imagine the MM detailing minions, soldiers, elites, and bosses for each of the types. I wonder whether guidelines might be spelled out perhaps? One potential problem is that they would have to scale up with level although this seems feasible.

Interesting indeed.

 

[Alzrius]

From a design feasibility standpoint that seems to be the case. For instance I can't imagine the MM detailing minions, soldiers, elites, and bosses for each of the types. I wonder whether guidelines might be spelled out perhaps? One potential problem is that they would have to scale up with level although this seems feasible.

I'm completely guessing here, but I'm thinking that each monster will belong to just one "encounter type" and the MM will have a short section on how to modify monsters from one type to another.

I'm also guessing that some third-parties will take such a section to a much more in-depth level, and have stronger conversion guidelines on how to turn that minion monster into a boss, so as to better surprise your players.

 

[historian]

I'm completely guessing here, but I'm thinking that each monster will belong to just one "encounter type" and the MM will have a short section on how to modify monsters from one type to another.

I'm also guessing that some third-parties will take such a section to a much more in-depth level, and have stronger conversion guidelines on how to turn that minion monster into a boss, so as to better surprise your players.

That's about what I envision.

I am really enthused about the inclusion of Orcus in the 4e MM. This gets back to the feel of OD&D. I don't know what you guys are thinking but I am reading kind of a mixed message on supporting levels beyond 30. Any thoughts?

Of course, I expect there will be a third-party publishing some supplementary material for high-level play or ultra-high level play; whatever the case.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

That's about what I envision.

I am really enthused about the inclusion of Orcus in the 4e MM. This gets back to the feel of OD&D.

Me too!

It will be interesting to see how dumbed down in terms of the number of options someone like Orcus is given. The way 4E is outlining monsters anything more than half a dozen options seems a no-no.

I don't know what you guys are thinking but I am reading kind of a mixed message on supporting levels beyond 30. Any thoughts?

I think they have mentioned that the gods should be physically challenged by PCs. Whether this means Epic PCs 21-30, or something beyond that is another matter.

Of course, I expect there will be a third-party publishing some supplementary material for high-level play or ultra-high level play; whatever the case.

Regarding your earlier point, I was brainstorming about the Four Horsemen.

If we assume Thanatos is an elite X level controller leader, then the other three horsemen could be (standard) X level monsters.

Therefore the four together would make up the appropriate encounter.

But shouldn't all the Horsemen be de facto 'Elite' opponents, and if so how much lower level does one elite monster have to be to equal a standard monster?