4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

Well I see this has turned into a lively debate...what was I thinking. :(

dante58701 said:
Go back, study 1st Edition in DEPTH, play Dungeons & Dragons, and then get back to me on this. It's obvious ur a newb and have no idea what you are talking about. That is of course forgivable, but ultimately disappointing.

Dante thats you halfway to another ban so tread carefully. Interesting debate so don't ruin it for the rest of us by making personal attacks. Especially not personal attacks claiming someone doesn't know what they are talking about when its clear to all here he just whipped you on a point by point argument.

Keep it civil or keep out.

P.S. Its good to have you back dante mate. :D
 

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Howdy Khuxan! :)

Khuxan said:
I have never bought a product from Eternity Publishing. I will never buy a 3.5 product from Eternity Publishing. My friends have enough trouble doing the maths and number-crunching at level 10, let alone level 20, let alone level 30 or beyond.

Understandable, my 3.5 work (or indeed 3E epic in general I suppose) is for ultra high-level die hards, maths wizards and anime fans.

Hopefully my eventual 4E work may tempt you into the realm of immortal Dungeons & Dragons?

The promise in this pit fiend is that high-level adventuring will finally be an option.

I agree its shows promise.

Your list of the differences between the 3.5 and 4E Pit Fiend was interesting, it was weird to see that for all its abilities it had little or no unique abilities to give it any identity.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Howdy Khuxan! :)

Hi!

Understandable, my 3.5 work (or indeed 3E epic in general I suppose) is for ultra high-level die hards, maths wizards and anime fans.

Hopefully my eventual 4E work may tempt you into the realm of immortal Dungeons & Dragons?

That's definitely my hope.

I agree its shows promise.

Your list of the differences between the 3.5 and 4E Pit Fiend was interesting, it was weird to see that for all its abilities it had little or no unique abilities to give it any identity.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the 3.5e or the 4e pit fiend. As I think about it, neither seem to have special abilities that scream "pit fiend" - but I'm not sure what those special abilities would be. The 3.5's ability to call down a meteor swarm would be impressive and unique if it weren't in the spellbook of every 20th-level wizard.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Well I see this has turned into a lively debate...what was I thinking. :(

Just a quick question before I'm off to do my errands:
What's wrong with debating?
Khuxan, I'll be sure to respond later when I have more time.
 

Howdy Alzrius matey! :)

You don't think that's expecting a lot from someone who never played the game before? I'm sorry, but if the person had never played D&D at all, of course he's going to need to look up the pit fiend's powers - he's going to need to look up everything. That's not a very good yardstick to use, methinks.

The difference is that in 4E he only has to look up the monster entry in the Monster Manual, In 3.5 he has to look up the monster entry in the Monster Manual and the Players Handbook (for spell-like abilities AND feats). Then factor in the possibility a monster might be using feats and spells from different sources (Book of Vile Darkness, Epic Level Handbook etc.). Throw in an additional layer of complexity for Dragons in that you have to choose all their feats to begin. Add in the further potential of Integrated Class Features and before you know it you are swamped.

I don't want my high/epic-level monsters to have "enough" options; I want them to have "a lot" of them. This guy is going to fight the exact same way every single time the PCs fight a pit fiend unless the DM tailors the monster.

The question seems to be do you want:

a) All monsters to be unique but have a small list of options.
b) All monsters to share myriad similarities but have a wide range of options.

Even assuming that's true (which I don't think it is), I still see that as an example of the experienced people being disenfranchised so as to cater to the new people - which is ultimately a losing proposition, because new players eventually becomes experienced players, but the reverse isn't true.

From what little we can glean at this point it looks like 4E has FAR more tactical depth than 3.5 ever did, particularly with the martial classes.

I agree that monsters should be unique from other monsters. But I don't think denying them spell-like abilities and/or spellcasting in favor of a couple of individualized combat powers is necessarily the way to do it. Would it really detract from the 4E pit fiend if it had some spell-like abilities in addition to the listed powers we saw?

Yes. When you fight a Pit Fiend (or a Dragon, or whatever) I want that fight to be unique, not the same as when you were fighting ten other encounters where either monsters or NPCs all had access to the same spells or spell-like abilities.

That said, I think we are all in agreement its at least one or two options shy of what we would like, but we still don't know what benefits those summoned devils will bring.

This may just be my bias, but monsters of such a high power seem to be inherently magical, to a degree, and this is reflected in having the ability to use a number of magical effects - they have more magical might on which to draw. What spells/spell-like abilities they have is where the differences are introduced (of course, unique powers help more, but the point is still a valid one).

It's the fact that such spells/SLAs are so ubiquitous are what people seem to dislike. If the spell-like abilities were of spells that mortals couldn't cast, then that'd be something else altogether.

The term spell-like abilities seems to generalise abilities. Making them universal rather than unique.

Irregardless, this pit fiend has five relatively minor active powers - one of which can only be used once - giving it virtually no ability to even change how it fights.

By my calculations, after the first round (summons) the Pit Fiend has two different choices for each of its actions that round (standard, move and minor). But thinking more about it, there are few monsters have more than that discounting spell-like abilities...and thats going by my own monsters in the Epic Bestiary - where I was already pushing the 4E mantra of trying to give each monster a suite of unique abilities.

I don't see the problem with buffed monsters or readied areas. That just makes sense from an in-game point of view. It's another layer of tactics, which I think are what make the higher levels so much more interesting. Did the monster buff itself and lay magical traps, or did you catch it by surprise? Should you try to dispel it's protective spells, or go for a damage-dealing spell instead? These are the sorts of things that make high-level play so much fun, otherwise there's very little difference between it and the low levels.

The problem is that buffing or readied areas are not tactics, they are a strategy. A tactic is making a choice. Asking a fighter if he wants Bulls Strength or not isn't a tactical choice, because the Fighter will always want it.

You are always going to buff and ready an area if possible. So if you are buffing and the monsters are also buffing where the hecks the benefit to buffing. Its a totally unnecessary layer of math.

I agree with you here, I just think that, if the only difference is the summoned monsters it brings forth, the pit fiend will quickly become dull and boring - particularly since the summoned monsters don't matter much, since they're just there to be blown up. How quickly will the PCs catch on to such tactics and make sure to avoid them in the future (or, heck, even during the very first fight)?

Well you could argue that the 3.5 Pit Fiend is already so close to other monsters that its already dull and boring when used in the greater context. At least this way you have an encounter with a Pit Fiend thats going to be unique. Two Pit Fiends may fight the same, but at least a Pit Fiend won't fight the same as numerous other monsters.

Also take into account that we are likely to see far more monsters per page in the new Monster Manual (because each entry is uncluttered with the same repeating spell-like abilities and other blandness).

I'd rather get more mileage out of one monster; when the PCs can use divinations and knowledge checks to clue in about what they'll be facing, I don't want them to instantly know what "kind" of combatant each monster is, and know to adjust themselves accordingly, all from knowing just what it is.

In that respect how is 4E any different from 3.5? Except that in 3.5 by 'knowing' who you are fighting you can specifically buff to defeat it thus neutering the threat.

Finally, the idea that you can "just give him" whatever else you want the pit fiend to have works much easier in reverse. Just delete what you don't want him to have. Adding something is more work, because relevant questions of where it comes from, how it works, etc. are there, and can be brought to the fore (e.g. can it be dispelled, and if so is it then gone, or does it return for after 1d4 rounds if it's an item, etc).

Monsters are like trees - they have branches (options) and if there's too many, it's easy to cut them down; it's much harder to add more in when there's too few.

In 3.5 too many monsters have the exact same branches though. :p
 

Whipped me? Hardly, his logic was completely defunct and had no basis in reality whatsoever, I just got bored with trying to explain truth to someone so firmly entrenched in propaganda.

I also wasn't making personal attacks. I was making a suggestion that he should go back to 1st Edition so he actually has more than just...- It's better because WOTC says so. -, which seems to be the stance a few people have been taking on this disappointing "Imp Fiend". If it was taken as a personal attack it's not really my problem. It's just a matter of unequal perception as it is impossible to judge emotion on a piece of 010101010101010 document.

None of his reasonings were valid. The Pit Imp is weaker than the Pit Fiend by far. In fact, face the two off and it is an absolute that the Pit Imp would lose against the Pit Fiend in roughly 1 round. As to what makes a pit fiend a pit fiend...well...simple...The Original Pit Fiend from 1st Edition Dungeons & Dragons was considered cannon for 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 3.0, and 3.5. Thus WOTC has gone way too far in "neutering" the Pit Fiend and turning it into a limpwristed Pit Imp. This is a travesty of the worst sorts in the gaming world.
 

Hey mostlyharmless! :)

mostlyharmless said:
Just a quick question before I'm off to do my errands:
What's wrong with debating?

Nothing at all, in fact I encourage it.

But my post was in reference to my good friend dante (just back from a ban) who lets his enthusiasm get the better of him sometimes.

Good debate shouldn't require personal attacks, not in this Forum at any rate.
 

I can't wait for 4th Ed.

It's gonna come out at my local gaming store, I'll buy it and start playing. I'll probably like it because I've liked 90% of what I've read so far.

[Others], however, will kick and cry and bitch and libel people who do so. [They] also won't buy the books - though [they] may download the pdfs, just so [they're] not completely in the dark when [they] tries to persist in caustic, uneducated, no-frame-of-reference, cheap-shot tactics of anti-4E argument.

Then UK will start designing in the new rules set and [others], thank the frakkin gods, will have that much less in common with people of my disposition. We can separate the wheat from the chaff around here and get back to interesting discussions, rather than this sort of childish "I'm more 'old school' than you, so you're in the wrong" bullcrap.

Like I said: I can't wait.
 

Howdy dante dude! :)

dante58701 said:
Whipped me? Hardly, his logic was completely defunct and had no basis in reality whatsoever, I just got bored with trying to explain truth to someone so firmly entrenched in propaganda.

He replied to every single point you made, debunking every single criticism you had.

I also wasn't making personal attacks. I was making a suggestion that he should go back to 1st Edition so he actually has more than just...- It's better because WOTC says so. -, which seems to be the stance a few people have been taking on this disappointing "Imp Fiend". If it was taken as a personal attack it's not really my problem. It's just a matter of unequal perception as it is impossible to judge emotion on a piece of 010101010101010 document.

You called him a newb and stated he didn't know what he was talking about. Not a banning offence by any means but if experience has taught me anything here your replies get progressively more personal as the dark side swells in you. So I thought best to nip it in the bud this time.

None of his reasonings were valid. The Pit Imp is weaker than the Pit Fiend by far. In fact, face the two off and it is an absolute that the Pit Imp would lose against the Pit Fiend in roughly 1 round.

Firstly, we don't know what benefits the summoned creatures will have. Secondly the 3E Pit Fiend is weaker than the 3.5E Pit Fiend, that doesn't mean anything since the two are created under different rules. Something thats simply more powerful is not necessarily a better monster, nor a better designed monster. So saying the individual 4E Pit Fiend being weaker than the 3.5E Pit Fiend makes it rubbish is a load of nonsense.

As to what makes a pit fiend a pit fiend...well...simple...The Original Pit Fiend from 1st Edition Dungeons & Dragons was considered cannon for 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 3.0, and 3.5. Thus WOTC has gone way too far in "neutering" the Pit Fiend and turning it into a limpwristed Pit Imp. This is a travesty of the worst sorts in the gaming world.

Again illogical.

The 4E Pit Fiend can do much of what its 1E counterpart could do (as well as a few new tricks).
 

Hello! :)

Khuxan said:
I wonder if the pit fiend can turn its aura off. Hopefully 4e will allow that.

One minor point on this is that the 4E Spined Devil (6th-level Skirmisher) has Fire Resistance 20. So if even lesser devils have that amount its a safe bet most if not all (Ice Devils?) have fire resistance that allows them to work in tandem with the Pit Fiend without getting burnt.

Though that said you would think Auras could be switched on or off.
 

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