log in or register to remove this ad

 

5E 4th level Bladesinger with same AC as Tarrasque

That would have likely gone down differently in my 3E games.

The Trolls had a +14 Grapple bonus, and are at +9 to hit with Melee touch attacks vs the Bladesingers Touch AC (no bracers or shield) of 18 (2 attacks each) to initiate the Grapple.

Once grappled, the Elf loses his Dex bonus to AC, and all Dodge bonuses (such as those granted by Expertise), reducing his AC to 21 versus the other 24 Trolls.

They then surround and maul him to death at +9 to hit with his d4 hit dice.

Seeing as the Elf almost certainly dumped Strength, they're now in a world of hurt, and likely pinned in the following round (reducing their AC by a further 4).

Bullrush (+10 vs the Elfs bonus of likely +0) is also an option.

More than one way to skin a cat.

That would have been no possibility. I think I forgot to mention the ring of freedom of action*.
;)
Which nearly killed her later. When she slipped and was threatened to fall down several 100fts, the helping hand of her ally that tried to grab her was of no use either.

On a different note: no, strength was not dumped at all. She wielded her longsword just fine (she only had 18 dex probably...). But she had rolled the stats of her life...
... while the poor bard had 14,13,12,10,9,8 for stats (and he created 10 peasants or so before he got those high numbers...)
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

That would have been no possibility. I think I forgot to mention the ring of freedom of action*.
;)
Which nearly killed her later. When she slipped and was threatened to fall down several 100fts, the helping hand of her ally that tried to grab her was of no use either.

40,000 GP item? Schroedingers Wizard is alive and well.

Trip does largely the same thing. Melee touch attack (+9 vs Touch AC 21), then a Strength check (with +4 for size) at +10 v the Dexterity of +5 for the Bladesinger.

Prone grants -4 to AC, for a much more manageable AC of 26, meaning the Trolls hit with claws on a 17+

His HD are d4's.

Id likely get them to Overrun (+10 vs the Elfs +0) the Prone Elf at that point though, if that clears the choke point.
 

40,000 GP item? Schroedingers Wizard is alive and well.

Trip does largely the same thing. Melee touch attack (+9 vs Touch AC 21), then a Strength check (with +4 for size) at +10 v the Dexterity of +5 for the Bladesinger.

Prone grants -4 to AC, for a much more manageable AC of 26, meaning the Trolls hit with claws on a 17+

His HD are d4's.

Id likely get them to Overrun (+10 vs the Elfs +0) the Prone Elf at that point though, if that clears the choke point.

It is a prewitten adventure*. I don't know why you mention Schroedinger here... If you think I am specially countering your proposed tactics, please look it up yourself. You will find those items readily in the adventure I mention in the spoiler Tag below. The abundance of magic items is a hint for what is coming. I can even tell you how they got the item. (Second spoiler)

In 3e not all levels are d4s. She needed to have fighter and wizard levels. Did I mention her stats were way above average?

Yes, overrun and trip are useful. But you should remember, that you provoke an opportunity attack when you try those maneuvers and automatically fail if the attack hits you. Also trolls are not that intelligent and they first need to understand, why their usual tactics are not working.

*
Night below. Converted from 2e to 3e.

The cleric attacking the PCs on the river, Ranchefus, wears the ring of free action. They follwed him to broken slire keep and killed him along with his zombies. It was the other wizard, last one standing, takingthe last hp with a critical hit from a thrown lantern, because no spell was left for him.

Edit: Now that I was looking it up anyway: it was bracers of AC +4 but I think we used the shield spell from 3.0 that gave +7 AC into one direction instead of +4 generally.
 
Last edited:

Iry

Hero
He's running 2 encounter adventuring days.

No amount of monster tactics is going to sort that out unless he does something about how often he allows long rests.
Its really easy to wipe out a group with good monster tactics. Its just not especially fun for the PCs to get stomped like that, so its rarely a good idea.

That said, I agree that increasing the number of encounters is the better option, but OP seems unwilling to do that.
 

In 3e not all levels are d4s. She needed to have fighter and wizard levels. Did I mention her stats were way above average?

So what, like 30hp? 40?

Yes, overrun and trip are useful. But you should remember, that you provoke an opportunity attack when you try those maneuvers and automatically fail if the attack hits you. Also trolls are not that intelligent and they first need to understand, why their usual tactics are not working.

You dont have to be intelligent to overrun an enemy blocking a choke point, to get to others behind it, or to surround it. Animals would try that tactic.

Also, unlike Grappling, Overruns and Trips are not thwarted by a successful AoO.

Edit: Now that I was looking it up anyway: it was bracers of AC +4 but I think we used the shield spell from 3.0 that gave +7 AC into one direction instead of +4 generally.

That version of the Shield spell only blocks half the battlefield.

Even more problems for the PC if the Trolls overrun the PC holding the choke point.
 

Its really easy to wipe out a group with good monster tactics. Its just not especially fun for the PCs to get stomped like that, so its rarely a good idea.

That said, I agree that increasing the number of encounters is the better option, but OP seems unwilling to do that.

Im not saying anything about 'wiping them out.'

Im merely pointing out the fact the DM/ OP is ignoring the DMG section on encounters, resting and the adventuring day XP totals and resource management, and then wondering why he has a problem with a PC using resources (Bladesinging is limited to short rests, and spell slots for mage armor and shield) to breeze through his encounters.

Its self evident that if the DM/OP stuck to the DMG Adventuring day XP guidelines, and the 6ish encounter/ 2 short rests to every long rest guidelines in the DMG that the game is balanced around, he wouldnt have this problem.

Furthermore, this is the problems he's having at 4th level by ignoring those recomendations. Can you imagine the problem he's going to have when more potent spells and abilities come online?

Literally all he has to do (with a 0-2 encounter per day median) is to implement Gritty realism resting and the problem goes away.
 

So what, like 30hp? 40?



You dont have to be intelligent to overrun an enemy blocking a choke point, to get to others behind it, or to surround it. Animals would try that tactic.

Also, unlike Grappling, Overruns and Trips are not thwarted by a successful AoO.



That version of the Shield spell only blocks half the battlefield.

Even more problems for the PC if the Trolls overrun the PC holding the choke point.

Good thing, the other half was barred for the Trolls.

And since I did never want a discussion to start about a 20 year old game and what I could have done better to kill my PCs, which I probably did not want too hard back then (Only the druid and his bear died... ), i am out of the discussion.

You are right about trip though, the attack is not thwartded, but I think you are still disencouraged to do so by the opportunity attack, but you mileage might vary.

I see my responsibility as a DM as making it a fun fight. Using every tactic to make the life of my PCs hard only forces the same tactics from them. Actually one of the reasons I do not like battle map fights. And one of the reasons I stopped with 3.x. I see no point in making everyone feel miserable.

Edit: 6d6+20 or so reduced her to 3 hp. So you can calculate her hp. Probably about 44. I bet some of those were temp hp though.
 

And since I did never want a discussion to start about a 20 year old game and what I could have done better to kill my PCs, which I probably did not want too hard back then (Only the druid and his bear died... ), i am out of the discussion.

I'm only saying its relevant in the sense of your implication that 'a PC with ridiculously high AC cant be challenged by monsters.' They can, if the DM is good enough.

Always more than one way to skin a cat.
 

I'm only saying its relevant in the sense of your implication that 'a PC with ridiculously high AC cant be challenged by monsters.' They can, if the DM is good enough.

Always more than one way to skin a cat.

That was not my implication at all. I don't know why you read that into it. You can't base a generalization on a single edge case example. I only said, that you can still have fun, even in a very imbalanced scenario.
Did you notice my remark about the bard in the same group?
He was was borderline underpowered if you only look at his stats... Btw, he had 9 dexterity and 8 strength... But he never tried to be good at fighting. He put all his efforts in his social and trading skills and had about a +15-20 modifier by level 6 or so. He made sure that all the treasures were sold for a reasonable price or traded for good other treasures.
He also had spells selected that boosted his inspire courage so he offered everyone +4 to hit and damage. I guess if you looked closely how much misses he turned into hits and on the extra damage done, he more than pulled his weight in combat and his weight was enormous (the character was quite overweight.)
 
Last edited:

I'm only saying its relevant in the sense of your implication that 'a PC with ridiculously high AC cant be challenged by monsters.' They can, if the DM is good enough.

Always more than one way to skin a cat.
You are in essence absolutely right. Just change the Good enough to Willing enough. There is a big difference between being good and willing. But yep, I fully agree with you. Either the DM change is approach and goes for gritty realism with the rest rule, or he goes to the 6-8 encounters per day. Not much choice over there.
 


To be fair a lot of DMs dont read the DMG, or understand the implications of ignoring the adventuring day recommendations.

Its not always a case of 'not willing' to do anything in that space. It's also quite often they're unaware that space exists.
 

To be fair a lot of DMs dont read the DMG, or understand the implications of ignoring the adventuring day recommendations.

Its not always a case of 'not willing' to do anything in that space. It's also quite often they're unaware that space exists.

That might be so. Still you readily jumped to conclusions when you should have read my post properly. And if you have trouble getting the meaning, ask instead of making things up.
If you had read my posts you would have noticed that I recommended changing the rest rules to suit your campaign.
 

That might be so. Still you readily jumped to conclusions when you should have read my post properly. And if you have trouble getting the meaning, ask instead of making things up.
If you had read my posts you would have noticed that I recommended changing the rest rules to suit your campaign.

Cool your jets brother.

The post you quoted wasnt even directed at you.
 

Cool your jets brother.

The post you quoted wasnt even directed at you.

But the one before was. And it was not a nice one. Maybe apologize.
Or at least next time, at least state your intend why you picked my 20 year old story apart. Then I earlier had noticed, that we are on the same side here...
 

But the one before was. And it was not a nice one. Maybe apologize.
Or at least next time, at least state your intend why you picked my 20 year old story apart. Then I earlier had noticed, that we are on the same side here...

I didnt 'pick it apart'. I simply stated that your AC 30 Bladesinger was not invulnerable. There were other tactics that could have been used by the monsters in that encounter that could have quite easily turned that encounter on its head, outside of the monsters sitting there and targeting his (high) AC.

Considering the premise of this thread, it was a valid point to make.

Im glad you had fun with your encounter and that it was memorable though.
 

I didnt 'pick it apart'. I simply stated that your AC 30 Bladesinger was not invulnerable. There were other tactics that could have been used by the monsters in that encounter that could have quite easily turned that encounter on its head, outside of the monsters sitting there and targeting his (high) AC.

Considering the premise of this thread, it was a valid point to make.

Im glad you had fun with your encounter and that it was memorable though.

And still, you were not there and made assumptions about my intention, which ia more than rude.
Next time state your intention. You also made deduction based only of half knowledge... You didn't know about the game, the other characters and the battlefield. I don't remember exactly anymore... but I still know why grappling failed and so next time do it differently.

Afterwards you stated that I implied, you could not do anything against a bladesinger with high AC.
Nope: against this particular one there were many encounters where I easily bypassed the high AC, but in this encounter I probably chose not to, because I wouldn't want to spoil the fun. Most probably because I took into account that the encounter was created for 2e, with much more relarively powerful fire spells at that level.
For the other bladesinger I presented 2 easy solutions in posts before.

So in the end, that all came over very rude.
 

To be fair a lot of DMs dont read the DMG, or understand the implications of ignoring the adventuring day recommendations.

Its not always a case of 'not willing' to do anything in that space. It's also quite often they're unaware that space exists.
This is a common problem in my area too. I do a lot of coaching in our Friday night magic (before or after the game itself) and many "young" (or should I say inexperienced) DMs are simply forgetting that there are a lot that monsters/foes/characters that are not explicitly written in the stat block or on the character sheets. I did a small document called what characters and monsters can do in a round (in French) and it helped a lot of people (players included) to make better games (or at least more tactically sound).
 

Iry

Hero
Im merely pointing out the fact the DM/ OP is ignoring the DMG section on encounters, resting and the adventuring day XP totals and resource management, and then wondering why he has a problem with a PC using resources (Bladesinging is limited to short rests, and spell slots for mage armor and shield) to breeze through his encounters.

Its self evident that if the DM/OP stuck to the DMG Adventuring day XP guidelines, and the 6ish encounter/ 2 short rests to every long rest guidelines in the DMG that the game is balanced around, he wouldnt have this problem.
Yes, multiple people have recommended this. He wrote a post stating he is unwilling to do this.
implement Gritty realism resting and the problem goes away.
I can't recommend gritty realism for this DM, since it causes ripples that the OP would, based on prior posts, not want to deal with.
 

clearstream

Be just and fear not...
Also wastes a round the Wizard could be blowing things to pieces/ shutting the monsters down, ensuring the Monsters get one full extra rounds worth of actions doing things like hurting the party and the party wasting other resources on hurting them back.
Assuming your resources are limited at all (i.e. by a DM enforcing some kind of meaning to uses and rests), Blur is so efficient at reducing incoming damage that the saved spells across the party results in more resources available.

I think what people least get about BS is that they are an excellent tank (barring a DM spamming hold person) while also being a full wizard. They should IMO waste as few spells as possible through being efficient defensively - hence blur. At the kind of AC they can achieve, any attack that hits is likely a crit, which then means their low HP is a problem for them. Blur reduces that from a chance on the order of N in tens, to N in hundreds.

And note, this doesnt have to happen all on the same game day. By simply implementing Gritty realism resting, an adventuring 'day' can take a month or more of in game time (any period of time between the week long, long rests).
For my money, straight levels in wizard remains the bar for power in DnD, even in 5e. I agree with you that something like Gritty Realism is well worth implementing. I personally find a week too long relative to short rests, so have varied it to 3 days, and inserted a 1 hour breather (short rests being 1 day). Otherwise you see short rest casters like warlocks overshadow.
 

Halloween Horror For 5E

Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top