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5E 4th level Bladesinger with same AC as Tarrasque

I agree, and responsive to that and other posts. The issue with BS is not simply that they can spike their AC, but they can do so efficiently, most encounters, while retaining full caster levels as a wizard.

Every single 'spike' costs resources that should be used (and would be better off being used) doing Wizard stuff.

Bladesinger 5 has 4/3/2 slots. Presuming even a 4 encounter adventuring day (50 percent LESS than the recomeded average), but still cleaving to the DMG median for XP per Adventuring day (and factoring in Arcane Recovery) he can be Blur-ed for 4 encounters (Arcane recovery and all 2nd level slots gone), have Mage armor running (1st level slot) Shield away 4 times (or only once per encounter) and have precisely enough juice left over to spam a single Fireball.

His Evoker buddy who just hangs back and blasts and lets the Meat shields do their jobs, instead spends a 1st level slot on Mage armor, and drops 4 scorching rays/ hold persons (1 per encounter), 2 Fireballs (excluding other PCs from the damage) or 1 every other encounter, and 3 Magic missiles to strafe any survivors.

I know which Wizard I'd rather be adventuring with.
 

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clearstream

Be just and fear not...
Every single 'spike' costs resources that should be used (and would be better off being used) doing Wizard stuff.

Bladesinger 5 has 4/3/2 slots. Presuming even a 4 encounter adventuring day (50 percent LESS than the recomeded average), but still cleaving to the DMG median for XP per Adventuring day (and factoring in Arcane Recovery) he can be Blur-ed for 4 encounters (Arcane recovery and all 2nd level slots gone), have Mage armor running (1st level slot) Shield away 4 times (or only once per encounter) and have precisely enough juice left over to spam a single Fireball.

His Evoker buddy who just hangs back and blasts and lets the Meat shields do their jobs, instead spends a 1st level slot on Mage armor, and drops 4 scorching rays/ hold persons (1 per encounter), 2 Fireballs (excluding other PCs from the damage) or 1 every other encounter, and 3 Magic missiles to strafe any survivors.

I know which Wizard I'd rather be adventuring with.
It's common for white room analysis to discount efficient defense and resources conserved across the whole party.
 

It's common for white room analysis to discount efficient defense and resources conserved across the whole party.

Same white room analysis fails to take into account the HP gained/lost by a Wizard tossing a fireball or hold person on round one instead of casting blur.

Literally dude, I can (right now) stat up an adventure using the DMG guidelines for a party of 4 x 5th level PCs (Cleric, Wizard, Fighter and Rogue) and the only cases where it's optimal on any level for the Wizard to be Bladesinging in melee is when he's doing it to deliver melee cantrips or he's forced into melee combat (and even then Misty step is your friend).

In 99 percent of cases, he's better off hanging back and being a Wizard. With the cool Wizard stuff that other Wizards get that make them better at being Wizards (auto fail a save via Diviner, Sculpt Spells of an Evoker etc), and not being some high AC low HP wanna be Fighter.

To melee he needs to burn through resources (spell slots) that work a hell of a lot better if they're being used to do Wizard stuff and not simply make him harder to hit in melee, where he shouldnt even be in the first place!
 

S'mon

Legend
I agree the Tarrasque has fairly low AC, but if you give him Sorcerer levels he can Shield, Blur, or even cast Fly.

I love my Ancient spellcasting dragons! With CHA +5 they get 5 spell slots level 1-5, which I let them burn on Shield for a decent AC! :D
 


TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Supporter
Same white room analysis fails to take into account the HP gained/lost by a Wizard tossing a fireball or hold person on round one instead of casting blur.

Literally dude, I can (right now) stat up an adventure using the DMG guidelines for a party of 4 x 5th level PCs (Cleric, Wizard, Fighter and Rogue) and the only cases where it's optimal on any level for the Wizard to be Bladesinging in melee is when he's doing it to deliver melee cantrips or he's forced into melee combat (and even then Misty step is your friend).

In 99 percent of cases, he's better off hanging back and being a Wizard. With the cool Wizard stuff that other Wizards get that make them better at being Wizards (auto fail a save via Diviner, Sculpt Spells of an Evoker etc), and not being some high AC low HP wanna be Fighter.

To melee he needs to burn through resources (spell slots) that work a hell of a lot better if they're being used to do Wizard stuff and not simply make him harder to hit in melee, where he shouldnt even be in the first place!
Yea, but isn't the argument here for replacing the Fighter with a Bladesinger, not the Evoker or Diviner Wizard? Not every fight benefits from having a meatshield, and when they don't, you have 2 characters doing the superior Wizard stuff.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yea, but isn't the argument here for replacing the Fighter with a Bladesinger, not the Evoker or Diviner Wizard? Not every fight benefits from having a meatshield, and when they don't, you have 2 characters doing the superior Wizard stuff.
And you've hit the nail on the head for Bladesingers. They are flexible. Need a tank? They can burn their resources to do that. Need a blaster? They can burn their resources to do that. Need a controller? They can burn their resources to do that. Bladesingers are great at being flexible, but it's at the cost of not doing one of those other things. Also, their ability to do these things effectively and flexibly diminishes over time -- around mid Tier II the tank shtick starts to fall off -- Bladesingers are iffy as tanks in Tier III. In Tier III, the Fighter likely has magical armor and shield and lots more hitpoints (due to hitdie and CON priority) and so will be rocking the Bladesinger's peak ACs all the time with the "meat" to back that up. The Bladesinger could focus on acquiring magic items to improve tankiness, but that comes at the cost of acquiring items to improve the other roles -- they're losing flexibility.

The real thing about Bladesingers is that they are terrific melee combatants in Tier I and II, and less good normal Wizards from Tier III on because they can't keep up in the melee and the lack the specialization in magics that other subclasses of Wizard have. They remain flexible, though, because they can still brave the melee line when other wizards cannot, but the risks are a lot higher.
 

clearstream

Be just and fear not...
The real thing about Bladesingers is that they are terrific melee combatants in Tier I and II, and less good normal Wizards from Tier III on because they can't keep up in the melee and the lack the specialization in magics that other subclasses of Wizard have. They remain flexible, though, because they can still brave the melee line when other wizards cannot, but the risks are a lot higher.
The thing here is that they are great at almost all the levels the game is mostly played at. (And I find the advantages of some of the other colleges over stated, across those levels.)
 

Scott Christian

Adventurer
I don't think as GM, you try to "deal with it." You let it play out. If you are roleplaying creatures, some fights the PC is going to shine. Good on them! Some creatures are going to be a waste of their resources. And other creatures will find ways to counteract as has been talked about earlier.

If the rules allow this, let the player do it. It seems maddening as a player when all the GM does is try to counteract the party's or PC's strengths.
 

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