D&D 5E 4th level Bladesinger with same AC as Tarrasque

[clearstream]

40,000 GP item? Schroedingers Wizard is alive and well.

Trip does largely the same thing. Melee touch attack (+9 vs Touch AC 21), then a Strength check (with +4 for size) at +10 v the Dexterity of +5 for the Bladesinger.

Prone grants -4 to AC, for a much more manageable AC of 26, meaning the Trolls hit with claws on a 17+

His HD are d4's.

Id likely get them to Overrun (+10 vs the Elfs +0) the Prone Elf at that point though, if that clears the choke point.

You start to see the case for blur

 

[clearstream]

And still, you were not there and made assumptions about my intention, which ia more than rude.
Next time state your intention. You also made deduction based only of half knowledge... You didn't know about the game, the other characters and the battlefield. I don't remember exactly anymore... but I still know why grappling failed and so next time do it differently.

Afterwards you stated that I implied, you could not do anything against a bladesinger with high AC.
Nope: against this particular one there were many encounters where I easily bypassed the high AC, but in this encounter I probably chose not to, because I wouldn't want to spoil the fun. Most probably because I took into account that the encounter was created for 2e, with much more relarively powerful fire spells at that level.
For the other bladesinger I presented 2 easy solutions in posts before.

So in the end, that all came over very rude.

I feel like a key issue with the BS AC is not in fact that a DM cannot do anything to them - of course they can - but that it warps the encounter around that one ability. Again. And again.

When I define "good" for mechanics, I think in terms of balance - not overshadowing others, making as many strategies as possible viable (which can and should change situationally), and not warping play around them. At many tables, the BS will be able to have bladesong and mage armour up most combats. I feel like "most combats" is too much of the time for the DM to have to be thinking tightly about one ability held by one character.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I feel like a key issue with the BS AC is not in fact that a DM cannot do anything to them - of course they can - but that it warps the encounter around that one ability. Again. And again.

When I define "good" for mechanics, I think in terms of balance - not overshadowing others, making as many strategies as possible viable (which can and should change situationally), and not warping play around them. At many tables, the BS will be able to have bladesong and mage armour up most combats. I feel like "most combats" is too much of the time for the DM to have to be thinking tightly about one ability held by one character.

I think you are right. This is why I changed my rest system to something that suits my playstyle as DM. The classes are unbalanced if long rests happen too often. So instead for going against a special case I eliminated the base problem.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I feel like a key issue with the BS AC is not in fact that a DM cannot do anything to them - of course they can - but that it warps the encounter around that one ability. Again. And again.

When I define "good" for mechanics, I think in terms of balance - not overshadowing others, making as many strategies as possible viable (which can and should change situationally), and not warping play around them. At many tables, the BS will be able to have bladesong and mage armour up most combats. I feel like "most combats" is too much of the time for the DM to have to be thinking tightly about one ability held by one character.

Adding an enemy caster isn't warping the game, though, and a lot of GMs avoid doing this because they don't like the hassle of tracking them. I agree, which is why I'll usually pick 3 things a caster will do and just jot those down -- they rarely get more than that off in an encounter anyway. So, if occasionally a caster has dispel magic, or a CON save spell, and occasionally smacks the bladesinger, what do you think is going to happen to how the bladesinger engages in melee when a caster is present? That caster might not have any such spell prepped, but the threat remains.

This is very like the 6-8 encounter guideline. If you do that occasionally, then it works even when you only have 2 encounters in a day. The chance that things might go longer will incentivize more conservation of resources in general. You don't have to do it often, but do it.

Now, I agree that if the GM is building an encounter specifically to thwart the bladesinger via special tactics or whatnot, then, yeah, you have issues. But a single enemy spellcaster with counterspell, used on the shield so that the BS is not only hit, but doesn't benefit from the +5 AC for the remainder of the round cycle, will definitely be a moment where PC learn something. And, if no shield is cast, something else will be and that can get the counterspell. Or a dispel magic. If it's thematic for the bad guys, run with it. There's so much that works in lots of situations that also would cause a bladesinger lots of problems, but you need to get comfortable with bad guys that use magic and not just the melee/ranged guys.

EDIT: just to be clear, this is a general you, not a specific one.

 

[Garthanos]

When I define "good" for mechanics, I think in terms of balance - not overshadowing others, making as many strategies as possible viable (which can and should change situationally), and not warping play around them.

I think I would not mind warping nearly as much in a general sense if non-caster characters also had things that forced a dm to respond to them. Mr I get another attack never will make a DM think.

 

[Mort]

I think I would not mind warping nearly as much in a general sense if non-caster characters also had things that forced a dm to respond to them. Mr I get another attack never will make a DM think.

This is a general problem with casters- and it gets worse as levels increase (though not nearly as bad as 3e/3.5)

In some ways the BS is actually less of a culprit on this (than other casters) as their focus is on the relatively mundane - get a higher AC. There are many, many ways a DM has to deal with a high AC, quite a few of which are standard strategies that don't involve much "warping."

 

[Ancalagon]

This is a common problem in my area too. I do a lot of coaching in our Friday night magic (before or after the game itself) and many "young" (or should I say inexperienced) DMs are simply forgetting that there are a lot that monsters/foes/characters that are not explicitly written in the stat block or on the character sheets. I did a small document called what characters and monsters can do in a round (in French) and it helped a lot of people (players included) to make better games (or at least more tactically sound).

That sounds rather helpful - was this published somewhere?

 

[Zaukrie]

Adding an enemy caster isn't warping the game, though, and a lot of GMs avoid doing this because they don't like the hassle of tracking them. I agree, which is why I'll usually pick 3 things a caster will do and just jot those down -- they rarely get more than that off in an encounter anyway. So, if occasionally a caster has dispel magic, or a CON save spell, and occasionally smacks the bladesinger, what do you think is going to happen to how the bladesinger engages in melee when a caster is present? That caster might not have any such spell prepped, but the threat remains.

This is very like the 6-8 encounter guideline. If you do that occasionally, then it works even when you only have 2 encounters in a day. The chance that things might go longer will incentivize more conservation of resources in general. You don't have to do it often, but do it.

Now, I agree that if the GM is building an encounter specifically to thwart the bladesinger via special tactics or whatnot, then, yeah, you have issues. But a single enemy spellcaster with counterspell, used on the shield so that the BS is not only hit, but doesn't benefit from the +5 AC for the remainder of the round cycle, will definitely be a moment where PC learn something. And, if no shield is cast, something else will be and that can get the counterspell. Or a dispel magic. If it's thematic for the bad guys, run with it. There's so much that works in lots of situations that also would cause a bladesinger lots of problems, but you need to get comfortable with bad guys that use magic and not just the melee/ranged guys.

EDIT: just to be clear, this is a general you, not a specific one.

Right, most of us look at those long lists of spells for NPC casters and lose interest. Just give them three spells (already having cast mage armor) and go from there.

 

[Garthanos]

Right, most of us look at those long lists of spells for NPC casters and lose interest. Just give them three spells (already having cast mage armor) and go from there.

I identify that as "Most DMs do not want to have to play the complexity of a PC when they drop in an adversary for the Players."

 

[Zaukrie]

I identify that as "Most DMs do not want to have to play the complexity of a PC when they drop in an adversary for the Players."

In my experience, even most PCs have a handful of spells they always cast.