Bobbystopholes
First Post
What do the books say? What does the errata's? If not, then you can do it. Sage does not equal rules. Though I agree it should be cleric level, the rules are the rules.
4th lvl. smackdown?
What do the books say? What does the errata's? If not, then you can do it. Sage does not equal rules. Though I agree it should be cleric level, the rules are the rules.
jontherev,
Actually you are completely mistaken. Crescent knife does not work like shuriken: From dragon#275 pg 44 "This weapoin, which resembles a crescent-shaped blde affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack si resovled separately. Stats are 1d3/20/x2.
As far as damage calculations. I actually undercalculated the values, not over calculated because I did not include criticals. I already factored in the -2 from two weapon fighting which is why I said the three attacks were at +5 rather than +7. If you would actually like to calculate the actual damage, feel free. But what I posted is the below the average damage.
Iaijutsu focus allows you to add bonus damage to your attack when you catch someone flatfooted and have just drawn a weapon. An average roll with a +11 to the skill will yield 21 which would give +3d6 bonus damage to each attack. This is why you have to draw each crescent knife for each attack.
Monkeyboy,
I must concede that you are right. I don't think it is possible using just core rules to make a 4th level smack down.
Actually you are completely mistaken. Crescent knife does not work like shuriken: From dragon#275 pg 44 "This weapoin, which resembles a crescent-shaped blde affixed to a crossbar handle, allows its wielder to make two simultaneous attack rolls (using the same modifier) each time he attacks with it. Each attack si resovled separately. Stats are 1d3/20/x2.
As far as damage calculations. I actually undercalculated the values, not over calculated because I did not include criticals. I already factored in the -2 from two weapon fighting which is why I said the three attacks were at +5 rather than +7. If you would actually like to calculate the actual damage, feel free. But what I posted is the below the average damage.
Iaijutsu focus allows you to add bonus damage to your attack when you catch someone flatfooted and have just drawn a weapon. An average roll with a +11 to the skill will yield 21 which would give +3d6 bonus damage to each attack. This is why you have to draw each crescent knife for each attack.
Monkeyboy,
I must concede that you are right. I don't think it is possible using just core rules to make a 4th level smack down.
not!
Completely mistaken?
Sounds like shurikens to me. The Sage has ruled that shurikens and spells that give multiple attacks (i.e. Acid Orb, Flame Arrow, etc.) only deal sneak attack damage on the first attack roll. I see absolutely no reason the crescent knife should be "special" and above this rule. It's for balance reasons obviously (see your smackdown above for proof) and if you email the Sage and ask him, I'll bet you a +5 Holy Vorpal Sword he'd tell you the same thing.
My numbers are more correct imo. And if you go back and read your surprise round, you said +7, not +5. Hence my correction of your mistake. However, you only need one weapon in the surprise round, so if you have quickdraw you could attack at +7 and draw the other weapon next round. Otherwise, you are TWF'ing and suffer the penalties.
According to another poster, you have to use a katana to get the iaijutsu focus. Assuming he's right, that gives you an average damage for surprise of 30. That assumes you hit with all 4 attacks, which probably won't happen. Note, this is still amazing at 4th level.
In the first round, after winning initiative, you could make 6 attacks at +5 for around 45 average damage.
If you want a reason why your idea is unbalanced, consider a +1 Long Sword of Speed that costs 50000gp and only gives ONE extra attack per round. Your DM would be crazy, or not aware of the Sage ruling, to allow your smackdown as written.
Gaiden said:
Completely mistaken?
Sounds like shurikens to me. The Sage has ruled that shurikens and spells that give multiple attacks (i.e. Acid Orb, Flame Arrow, etc.) only deal sneak attack damage on the first attack roll. I see absolutely no reason the crescent knife should be "special" and above this rule. It's for balance reasons obviously (see your smackdown above for proof) and if you email the Sage and ask him, I'll bet you a +5 Holy Vorpal Sword he'd tell you the same thing.My numbers are more correct imo. And if you go back and read your surprise round, you said +7, not +5. Hence my correction of your mistake. However, you only need one weapon in the surprise round, so if you have quickdraw you could attack at +7 and draw the other weapon next round. Otherwise, you are TWF'ing and suffer the penalties.
According to another poster, you have to use a katana to get the iaijutsu focus. Assuming he's right, that gives you an average damage for surprise of 30. That assumes you hit with all 4 attacks, which probably won't happen. Note, this is still amazing at 4th level.
In the first round, after winning initiative, you could make 6 attacks at +5 for around 45 average damage.
If you want a reason why your idea is unbalanced, consider a +1 Long Sword of Speed that costs 50000gp and only gives ONE extra attack per round. Your DM would be crazy, or not aware of the Sage ruling, to allow your smackdown as written.
Iaijutsu focus: "If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage based on the result of an Iaijutsu focus check." - Sorry DM Matt, it can be with any weapon.
The Sage has made no such ruling on crescent knives. Jontherev, if you would like to houserule that crescent knives function like shuriken, so be it. But as the rules stand, it is pretty clear by "Resolve each attack separately", that the weapon is intended to give you two attacks in place of each single attack you take.
Jontherev, I am truly confused by where you are getting "your numbers" from. With an 18 str and 3 warrior class levels, your total attack bonus for the crescent knives, all else being equal, is +7. In the surprise round, because you have expert tactician you get a free additional attack. I said to draw the second with your offhand for descriptive effect. But according to the rules, you could always just drop the first and draw a second in your main hand for your free melee attack from expert tactician.
Therefore, in the surprise round these attacks are each at +7. (btw - I did not even include mw crescent knives. At fourth level, I would think that it is more than likely that you could have several mw ones with would raise the attack bonus to +8).
In the first round of combat assuming you win initiative, you can perform a full attack and get the extra melee attack from expert tactician. That means full attack option to attack with two hands. meaning you take a -2 to your total attack bonus. Therefore, the +7 is reduced to +5 for all attacks. Therefore: 3 attacks each at +5 (+6 if you are using mw weapons). Assuming you are fighting AC 20 opponent, on average you will hit 30% of the time. Therefore, with dmg with main hand equal to 1d3+4+4d6 for normal attacks, (2d3+8+4d6 for crits), avg dmg for hitting with a 15 or above = .25x(1.5+4+14)+.05x.7x(1.5+4+14)+.05x.3(39). The first part is for regular hits, the second for unconfirmed crits, and the third for confirmed crits.
Therefore avg dmg for main hand per attack when fighting two handed = 4.875+.6825+.585. Each attack is really two attacks because of the crescent knife therefore avg dmg per attack is actually double this which = 12.285. This value is multiplied by two for the two main hand attacks (one reg + one e.t.) = 24.57
Now we add the off hand which is equal to .25x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.7x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.3(35). That equals 4.375+.6125+.525 = 5.5125. Multiplying this by 2 for the two attacks in place of the single, again because of the crescent knives, means total dmg for off hand = 11.025. Adding this to the 24.57 = 35.595
The dmg for the surprise round is better because you hit 40% of the time. Therefore dmg for the surprise round = .35x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.6x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.4(39)= 6.825+.585+.78=8.19. Multiplying this by two for the two attacks in place of every single attack because of the crescent knife = 16.38. Multiplying that by two for the extra attack you get from e.t. means total damage of 32.74 for the surprise round. Adding surprise rd. and 1st round total dmg means total dmg of 68.335.
These calculations are for non masterwork weapons. At fourth level the DMG says a character gets 3300 gp, more than enough to pay for 6 mw crescent knives @20gp +300 gp for mw.
As far as game balance, I completely agree with all of you who are alarmed by this smackdown - it is completely unbalanced. ITS A SMACKDOWN - they are not meant to be balanced.
Think about this character. S/he would have had to grow up in Amn or Waterdeep in FR and had access to planar knowledge to find out about the skill, iaijutsu focus, on Rokugan. Then, s/he would have had to come across a crescent knife - typically a tribal weapon, and trained in its use. All of these events are unlikely, but, hey, according to the rules, they are legal.
If people have trouble accepting this, make house rules - that is why you are the DM.
The Sage has made no such ruling on crescent knives. Jontherev, if you would like to houserule that crescent knives function like shuriken, so be it. But as the rules stand, it is pretty clear by "Resolve each attack separately", that the weapon is intended to give you two attacks in place of each single attack you take.
Jontherev, I am truly confused by where you are getting "your numbers" from. With an 18 str and 3 warrior class levels, your total attack bonus for the crescent knives, all else being equal, is +7. In the surprise round, because you have expert tactician you get a free additional attack. I said to draw the second with your offhand for descriptive effect. But according to the rules, you could always just drop the first and draw a second in your main hand for your free melee attack from expert tactician.
Therefore, in the surprise round these attacks are each at +7. (btw - I did not even include mw crescent knives. At fourth level, I would think that it is more than likely that you could have several mw ones with would raise the attack bonus to +8).
In the first round of combat assuming you win initiative, you can perform a full attack and get the extra melee attack from expert tactician. That means full attack option to attack with two hands. meaning you take a -2 to your total attack bonus. Therefore, the +7 is reduced to +5 for all attacks. Therefore: 3 attacks each at +5 (+6 if you are using mw weapons). Assuming you are fighting AC 20 opponent, on average you will hit 30% of the time. Therefore, with dmg with main hand equal to 1d3+4+4d6 for normal attacks, (2d3+8+4d6 for crits), avg dmg for hitting with a 15 or above = .25x(1.5+4+14)+.05x.7x(1.5+4+14)+.05x.3(39). The first part is for regular hits, the second for unconfirmed crits, and the third for confirmed crits.
Therefore avg dmg for main hand per attack when fighting two handed = 4.875+.6825+.585. Each attack is really two attacks because of the crescent knife therefore avg dmg per attack is actually double this which = 12.285. This value is multiplied by two for the two main hand attacks (one reg + one e.t.) = 24.57
Now we add the off hand which is equal to .25x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.7x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.3(35). That equals 4.375+.6125+.525 = 5.5125. Multiplying this by 2 for the two attacks in place of the single, again because of the crescent knives, means total dmg for off hand = 11.025. Adding this to the 24.57 = 35.595
The dmg for the surprise round is better because you hit 40% of the time. Therefore dmg for the surprise round = .35x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.6x(1.5+2+14)+.05x.4(39)= 6.825+.585+.78=8.19. Multiplying this by two for the two attacks in place of every single attack because of the crescent knife = 16.38. Multiplying that by two for the extra attack you get from e.t. means total damage of 32.74 for the surprise round. Adding surprise rd. and 1st round total dmg means total dmg of 68.335.
These calculations are for non masterwork weapons. At fourth level the DMG says a character gets 3300 gp, more than enough to pay for 6 mw crescent knives @20gp +300 gp for mw.
As far as game balance, I completely agree with all of you who are alarmed by this smackdown - it is completely unbalanced. ITS A SMACKDOWN - they are not meant to be balanced.
Think about this character. S/he would have had to grow up in Amn or Waterdeep in FR and had access to planar knowledge to find out about the skill, iaijutsu focus, on Rokugan. Then, s/he would have had to come across a crescent knife - typically a tribal weapon, and trained in its use. All of these events are unlikely, but, hey, according to the rules, they are legal.
If people have trouble accepting this, make house rules - that is why you are the DM.
Okay, first, you can do the bluff and attack in the same round, I think the feat is called Quicker than the Eye, a Song and Silence feat. It allows you to do this, my Rogue uses it all the time. 10th lvel, take mastery with balance, always take a 10, 16 cha, so +16, so your bluff is at 26. Since most things don't take sense motive as a skill, he usually is able to sneak attack. Fun.
And also, I have heard this before, that it is only 3300 for fourth level people, but I read in the DMG that it was 5400 for fourth level? where is it said different, and I do realize that for NPC's they have different money allotment. Maybe that's what you are referring to.
And also, I have heard this before, that it is only 3300 for fourth level people, but I read in the DMG that it was 5400 for fourth level? where is it said different, and I do realize that for NPC's they have different money allotment. Maybe that's what you are referring to.
Similar Threads
