D&D General 5.5 and making the game easier for players and harder for DMs

[Minigiant]

So you're saying that they don't pay attention to any point of view other than their own?

They do pay attention.

But like real life it's hard to understand a problem you don't have especially if the ones who have the problem usually can't describe the problems and (more importantly) offer solutions.

I mean how many people in this thread offered a way to speed up turns but not be boring?

2? 3?

 

[JohnSnow]

I don't know why other people have such an issue with high level play, I can only state my experience. If you want to go into details, ask questions, start up a thread with examples, I'm more than happy to do so. Adjusting difficulty at all levels is more of an art than a science, and practice makes, if not perfect, better.

But I make no claim to being a tactical genius. Obviously I'm doing something different or players in multiple groups have. For example I restrict a handful of spells, use custom monsters now and then or beef up existing ones, have more than 2-3 fights between long rests, limit the items PCs have access to. But I really don't know what the difference is, all I ever get is "it doesn't work" and D&D is always on easy mode. It hasn't been for me.

I’ve never run a really high-level game, so my issues with high-level play are conceptual ones, not practical ones.

At those levels, it no longer feels like fantasy I can relate to. To get acceptable challenges without breaking my own sense of world verisimilitude, PCs have to go to other planes of existence where being a demigod doesn’t make them the most powerful beings on the planet.

And, sorry, but…meh.

(As an aside, having seen how the game runs when people have 3 or 4 actions, I shudder to think how long a round would take when they have 8).

The answer is simple, but y'all are not gonna like it.

1. Eliminate bonus actions. Things are either an action or it's part of another action, but it's not an action on its own.

2. Eliminate short rests and anything that recharges with them. Including HP/HD.

3. Make all species traits passive.

4. Remove about 50% of all class features, including but not limited to weapon mastery, cantrips, action surge, sneak attack, smite evil, reckless attack, Hunter's Mark, metamagic, etc. Every class feature should be a limited use action or a passive always on buff.

5. Kill summoning, animated dead, familiars, beast pets, and other peripheral characters that use their own actions. Wild shape has fixed options.

6. Rework monsters to fall under the same rules. No bonus actions, limited special attacks (with no random recharge) and very few spellcasting monsters.

7. Cut as many reactions as possible from the game, including legendary actions.

It would be fast since PCs would only have a small amount of possible actions: move + attack, use a limited resource, use a skill, help, or defend. It's going to be tactically boring, but the lightning fast speed should make up for that.

“False dichotomy” is considered a logical fallacy.

The choice isn’t between “infinitely complex” (or even “where 5.24e seems to be going”) and “bog simple.” There is an entire continuum along that line, and the complexity could be set anywhere on it.

It’s utterly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

[Oofta]

It’s always as easy or hard to get to that point as the DM wants it to be. CR and XP budgets are suggestions, if you want to hit the PCs harder you can always use more and/or stronger enemies.

My simple go-to quick adjustment tactic is to give monsters advantage to hit and slightly higher AC. Potentially max damage. Oh, and if it's going to be a fight where flight and/or range is an issue use creatures that have ranged attacks. No reason that gladiator can't have javelins just like the PCs along with fights that don't always take place in the middle of football field.

 

[Oofta]

I’ve never run a really high-level game, so my issues with high-level play are conceptual ones, not practical ones.

At those levels, it no longer feels like fantasy I can relate to. To get acceptable challenges without breaking my own sense of world verisimilitude, PCs have to go to other planes of existence where being a demigod doesn’t make them the most powerful beings on the planet.

And, sorry, but…meh.

(As an aside, having seen how the game runs when people have 3 or 4 actions, I shudder to think how long a round would take when they have 8).

“False dichotomy” is considered a logical fallacy.

The choice isn’t between “infinitely complex” (or even “where 5.24e seems to be going”) and “bog simple.” There is an entire continuum along that line, and the complexity could be set anywhere on it.

It’s utterly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

High level play isn't for everyone, just like low level play isn't everyone's cup of tea. Personally I kind of prefer low level when I play, when I DM the experience is a different challenge so I like it for that reason. But I also try to keep thing relatively low magic, even at high levels.

 

[DarkCrisis]

The answer is simple, but y'all are not gonna like it.

1. Eliminate bonus actions. Things are either an action or it's part of another action, but it's not an action on its own.

2. Eliminate short rests and anything that recharges with them. Including HP/HD.

3. Make all species traits passive.

4. Remove about 50% of all class features, including but not limited to weapon mastery, cantrips, action surge, sneak attack, smite evil, reckless attack, Hunter's Mark, metamagic, etc. Every class feature should be a limited use action or a passive always on buff.

5. Kill summoning, animated dead, familiars, beast pets, and other peripheral characters that use their own actions. Wild shape has fixed options.

6. Rework monsters to fall under the same rules. No bonus actions, limited special attacks (with no random recharge) and very few spellcasting monsters.

7. Cut as many reactions as possible from the game, including legendary actions.

It would be fast since PCs would only have a small amount of possible actions: move + attack, use a limited resource, use a skill, help, or defend. It's going to be tactically boring, but the lightning fast speed should make up for that.

At that point i would just play a different game.

I've never understood "If the DM puts in a ton of extra work they can bend the game to his will." Or you know just play something that fits your vision better.

I can't think of a quicker way to lose players than to have them show and say "I've changed 50% of the game you came and expected to play."

 

[Remathilis]

“False dichotomy” is considered a logical fallacy.

The choice isn’t between “infinitely complex” (or even “where 5.24e seems to be going”) and “bog simple.” There is an entire continuum along that line, and the complexity could be set anywhere on it.

It’s utterly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Lol. The whole OSR movement is based on this very notion. Return the game to a time where combat was fast, simple and deadly. The fact you didn't realize I was essentially describing OSR play probably should say something about how, once the 'memberberries are gone, OS combat play isn't as conceptually as great as people want to credit it for.

 

[Remathilis]

At that point i would just play a different game.

I've never understood "If the DM puts in a ton of extra work they can bend the game to his will." Or you know just play something that fits your vision better.

I can't think of a quicker way to lose players than to have them show and say "I've changed 50% of the game you came and expected to play."

And yet, that is universally praised if it is done to limit classes and species because of "lore"...

 

[Vael]

TBH, I've already noted an increase in monster lethality. I mainly run pre-published adventures, and ran Light of Xaryxis twice, noticing there are some new monsters with the capability for 1-hit KOs and just a lot of the newer monsters were punching way better than their CR equivalents in the MM, so I'm reasonably confident the new MM will see more ways to challenge a party.

 

[Minigiant]

The answer is simple, but y'all are not gonna like it.

1. Eliminate bonus actions. Things are either an action or it's part of another action, but it's not an action on its own.

2. Eliminate short rests and anything that recharges with them. Including HP/HD.

3. Make all species traits passive.

4. Remove about 50% of all class features, including but not limited to weapon mastery, cantrips, action surge, sneak attack, smite evil, reckless attack, Hunter's Mark, metamagic, etc. Every class feature should be a limited use action or a passive always on buff.

5. Kill summoning, animated dead, familiars, beast pets, and other peripheral characters that use their own actions. Wild shape has fixed options.

6. Rework monsters to fall under the same rules. No bonus actions, limited special attacks (with no random recharge) and very few spellcasting monsters.

7. Cut as many reactions as possible from the game, including legendary actions.

It would be fast since PCs would only have a small amount of possible actions: move + attack, use a limited resource, use a skill, help, or defend. It's going to be tactically boring, but the lightning fast speed should make up for that.

That's the OSR.

it makes your PCs boring and unskilled and keeps you interested with a constant threat of death.

Which means once players stop caring about their PCs mortality, they check out. So it forces DMs to do another type of work to keep them interested.

 

[overgeeked]

You apparently do not do improvisation. If you think improvisors make their scenes that easy for themselves, I can assure you, you are surely mistaken, LOL.

I have done improv, yes. I also run RPGs. Most gamers are not improvisers in that they’re out to win at all costs. They don’t care how boring the game is as long as they win. To most gamers, winning is the only thing that matters.

There's nothing more enjoyable than lobbing out offers to your scene partners that make them have to scramble to keep up. And in this particular case... you think the DM will just hand things to the players on a silver platter? Heh heh... no fricking way.

Yes, it’s the referee’s job to make things challenging. That’s what I’m saying. Trouble is, that tends to result in the players getting mad, yelling, and ragequitting. Because they don’t want challenge, they want to steamroll win everything all the time.

DMs know when players are trying to game the system to make things simple for themselves.

Yes, they do. And for most gamers that’s literally all the time.

So even if you skip the dice and just had the DM make arbitrary decisions on whether things succeed or fail based on dramatic tension and narrative conceit... believe me the PCs would still find themselves up the creek without a paddle. And in fact... they'd probably find themselves in even more hot water if the DM could just make narrative choices and not need to rely on dice at all, rather than the other way around.

Depends entirely on the players. If they’re gamers, they will get mad at not getting the easy win. If they’re interested in story and drama and conflict, they’ll eat it up. This is at least one of the ways sweeping generalizations fail. People play games for different reasons. If they only care about winning, this style doesn’t work. If they care about drama, conflict, etc then it works a treat. In the last decade of running 5E, I’ve found maybe 5-6 players out of several hundred who’re not out for the easy steamroll win.