D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[James Gasik]

Nah. I have no particular opinion on the '24 fighter, but the 4e fighter is absolutely the high point of fighter design. It has a strong argument to be the best-designed class in the entire edition.

I was about to mention my pick for best-designed class, but then I remembered that just mentioning it's name leads to edition wars. So instead I'll just leave a picture of an iconic warrior here.

 

[CreamCloud0]

A strength-based fighter makes a bad archer. The existence of fighter-archers doesn't change this.

//

Strength-Fighters // their ranged attacks have disadvantage beyond like 20 feet.

what i wouldn't give for a few lines of text that say something to the effect of:

If you have STR 16 or higher you gain the following benefits
-Your short range with any weapon that already possesses the thrown property triples and your long range with it doubles, so Range(x3/x2),
-You consider any non-heavy melee weapon without the thrown property to have: Thrown(30/80),
-You consider any heavy melee weapon without the thrown property to have: Thrown(15/40),
-Weapons you throw that have Versatile property use their larger damage die when thrown,

with these changes your best STR options are probably javelin for range and trident for damage, let's compare them to what look like their closest ranged DEX-equivalents.

Weapon	Damage	Range	Properties	Mastery
Javelin	1d6 Piercing	90/240	N/A	Slow
Shortbow	1d6 Piercing	80/320	Ammo, 2-Handed	Vex
Trident	1d10 Piercing	60/120	N/A, Versatile,	Topple
Longbow	1d8 Piercing	150/600	Ammo, Heavy, 2-handed	Slow
H Crossbow	1d10 Piercing	100/400	Ammo, Heavy, Loading, 2-Handed	Push

That seems fairly balanced to me all things considered, don't you think?

 

[James Gasik]

Honestly, the idea that someone with 10 Str and 20 Dex is an ideal archer bugs me. I know why the concept has been streamlined. I actually prefer a game where you don't need to invest in multiple ability scores to be good at archery (at least, if everyone is going to insist on point-buy).

But it would be nice to have Strength bows or viable thrown weapon builds.*

*I mean really, any fighting style dependent on you throwing your weapon away is going to have problems if you hew too closely to simulation. But the only solution anyone seems willing to accept is "magic", while most every spellcaster can have an at-will ranged cantrip.

 

[NotAYakk]

what i wouldn't give for a few lines of text that say something to the effect of:

with these changes your best STR options are javelin for range and trident for damage, let's compare them to what are probably their closest ranged DEX-equivalents.

Weapon	Damage	Range	Properties	Mastery
Javelin	1d6 Piercing	90/240	N/A	Slow
Shortbow	1d6 Piercing	80/320	Ammo, 2-Handed	Vex
Trident	1d10 Piercing	60/120	N/A, Versatile,	Topple
Longbow	1d8 Piercing	150/600	Ammo, Heavy, 2-handed	Slow
H Crossbow	1d10 Piercing	100/400	Ammo, Heavy, Loading, 2-Handed	Push

That seems fairly balanced to me all things considered, don't you think?

I mean, like, I just want to give every melee type PC mobility boosts?

There isn't a great reason why a level 1 PC is as fast as a level 5, 10 or 20 PC.

As an example, change action surge to be:

• Once on your turn, you may take an action surge. If you do so, you may make a weapon attack, move your speed, and you have advantage on d20 tests until the start of your next turn. You can do this once before completing a short or long rest.
• Starting at 5th level, you can take two action surges between resets. Starting at 11th level, when you take your action surge you may move twice your speed and make two attacks. Starting at 17th level, you can take 3 action surges between rests.

We've now baked in mobility into action surge.

Then, grant +10 movement speed at level 6, 12 and 18 to the Fighter.

A level 18 fighter has a 60 foot movement speed, and can action surge 3 times per short rest to move an extra 120 feet on their turn. Their action surge no longer grants as many extra attacks, but they (usually) have more of them. Pressing that button puts them in "turbo" mode for that turn.

Monk and Barbarian speedup would be boosted. Rogues would get the same movement speed boosts as fighters (at 6/12/18), together with bonus action dash makes them fast enough.

Shrink ranges not by boosting throwing (which is somewhat silly to me; the PC wants to be in melee), but by making melee faster.

---

Second, make it standard that making a ranged attack on your turn after moving imposes disadvantage, and ranged weapon attacks halve your remaining. Doing the magic action after moving on your turn grants advantage on saving throws against the spell, and casting a spell halves your remaining speed.

This makes ranged options less mobile (making kiting not work as well), and gives a relative advantage to melee PCs. It applies to monsters as well.

(This is akin to 4e, where shifting out of melee range to use ranged attacks was a pain and defenders could punish it.)

So PCs who advance and fire either move slower or are less accurate. Melee who focus on closing the distance get there faster, and foes who retreat and do covering fire are either inaccurate or slower.

---

While this may feel like "bigger numbers", at level 20 a 200 range bow with 40' of movement archer vs a dashing 60' of movement melee character gets 10 turns before the melee character can close range.

With the above, the archer has 70' of movement (halved to 35' to keep accuracy). The dashing character has 120', so closes the distance at 85' per turn, or 3 turns to melee range. Throw in the above action surge and they reach melee range on turn 1 (and get 2 attacks instead of 4, but still they are in melee range).

The archer needs a defensive position - possibly a meat wall - to keep them safe.

 

[TigerDude]

Shields have been 1 step less rare than armor since 5e came out. It is a key feature that makes sword and board scale. The "rational item prices" nonsense erased that difference, which was one of the key ways which it screwed up.

Good observation. In effect, it buffs two handed weapons if you make better magic shields harder to find.

 

[TigerDude]

Honestly, the idea that someone with 10 Str and 20 Dex is an ideal archer bugs me. I know why the concept has been streamlined. I actually prefer a game where you don't need to invest in multiple ability scores to be good at archery (at least, if everyone is going to insist on point-buy).

But it would be nice to have Strength bows or viable thrown weapon builds.*

*I mean really, any fighting style dependent on you throwing your weapon away is going to have problems if you hew too closely to simulation. But the only solution anyone seems willing to accept is "magic", while most every spellcaster can have an at-will ranged cantrip.

You can't use a longbow without 13 str, which seems like a good compromise to me. Longbows are fantastic, it's bad to avoid them.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I mean, like, I just want to give every melee type PC mobility boosts?

i certainly agree with this principle (though our preferred executions may or may not differ), but more martial movement doesn't need to be at odds with better ranged STR options.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

We have tge same opinion. Iirc Mearls said classes should have weakness built it.

Indomitable may be to good but eh.

In seeing a lot more lucky feat being used. Low opportunity cost as origin feat.

The fighter already has a weakness: no magic.

 

[Weiley31]

I have a level 11 Champion Fighter in my one bud's game. I have Greater Weapon Master, Savage Attack, and the Champion's Heroic Inspiration generation alongside the fact I'm a human as well.

What I'm trying to say is: I can REROLL a lot of attack dice when it comes to hitting something.

It's kinda nutty actually.

 

[ECMO3]

Wait why? Indomitable is awesome now.

It breaks bounded accuracy, especially at high levels, and by a lot.

I prefer the old version. I think the old version was level appropriate. Part of the issue with the new Indomitable is the Mage Slayer feat (I liked the older version of that better as well), the champion's Heroic Inspiration and the Lucky feat which can all be had pretty easily on a high level fighter without giving up hardly anything.

If the old version was too weak you could implement a different mechanic - advantage on all saves or proficiency in all saves or a bonus of half your level as a reaction or something like that, but +14 or more on a save is just broken in a game that uses bounded accuracy as an underlying mathematical principle.