D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[ECMO3]

it will for your strength, and maybe your con or dex if you take resilient dex and max it out. otherwise uh...no, it'll be about as close as the +10 was at level 9. which is my problem.

At 20th level it is a +20 on the save. That is MUCH more than a +10 at 9th level and it is much more than having a max stat AND proficiency and if you have those two things as well it is a +31 total on the save.

A 9th level fighter with a 12 Wisdom rolling Indomitable has a +10, a 9th level Cleric with a 20 Wisdom has a +9.

A 20th level fighter with a 12 Wisdom rolling Indomitable has a +21, a 20th level Cleric with a 22 Wisdom has a +12.

....no? all the Indomitable uses are the same.

No they are not a level 10 Fighter/10 something else can use indomitable once with a +10 on the save. A 20th level fighter can use Indomitable three times with a +20 on the save.

 

[Zardnaar]

At 20th level it is a +20 on the save. That is MUCH more than a +10 at 9th level and it is much more than having a max stat AND proficiency and if you have those two things as well it is a +31 total on the save.

People have been saying fighters suck for a while.

Traditionally they've made their saves 75-95% of the time at higher level.

Weak saves are a major weak point. Spellcasters at least can buff or make themselves immune.

Fighters probably need to be proficient in all saves a'la Monks at 14 at similar levels.

 

[James Gasik]

Honestly, I think Paladins granting +5 to all saves is a bit more problematic. But the problem here is that "bounded accuracy" doesn't mean the system can't have large bonuses to things. Otherwise Bless would be a busted spell instead of being "ok". The game designers have gone on record saying they don't really worry about the individual bonuses to hit things have- it's really more about expected damage vs. expected hit points. The ability to trivialize or obviate things like saving throws is all over the place in the system- is Indomitable thrice a day worse than Heroes' Feast making the party immune to fear, poison, and granting advantage on all Wisdom saves for the day?

And is the War Priest just deciding to give themselves +10 to hit really a problem, when almost no enemy has an AC over 19 anyways?

Or what about the effects of Expertise on skill checks? A high level Rogue can have +17 to a check, with advantage if it uses a Tool and a Skill, and ignore low rolls, making DC 30 checks routinely.

Basically there was never any guarantee that super high bonuses wouldn't appear in 5e, and if there was, the 2014 PHB alone proves that it was a pack of lies. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but as long as your group is on board, at least you can change it.

Personally, being able to make three saves a day with 95% accuracy isn't going to make me want to play a Fighter. If I want good saves, I'll be a Paladin, lol. But I think it's nice that the ability feels impactful when it's used.

 

[ECMO3]

People have been saying fighters suck fir a while.

Traditionally they've made their saves 75-95% of the time at higher level.

Weak saves are a major weak point. Spellcasters at least can buff or make themselves immune.

Fighters probably need to be proficient in all saves a'la Monks at 14 at similar levels.

Spell casters can make fighters immune too. Proficiency in all saves would be fine, I think they would need to phase it in thematically - Dexterity and Intelligence at 9th level, Wisdom at 13th level and Charisma at 17th level or something like that.

People here have been saying "fighters suck" for a while, but I don't really know what that means. Fighters were objectively average among the 2014 classes, weaker than the strongest classes at most levels but stronger than the weakest classes at most levels.

Even though they were an average class in terms of power, they were also a very popular class, probably the most popular class (and certainly the most popular in survey data). So if by "suck" you mean people generally did not like playing them I would strongly disagree with that. If by "suck" you mean they were not as powerful as some other classes, I would agree, but that is not something that needs fixing IMO.

To me the arguement that Fighters needed to be improved is not very compelling. I think Rogues and Barbarians needed to be improved. Fighters (and Monks) not so much.

 

[ECMO3]

Honestly, I think Paladins granting +5 to all saves is a bit more problematic. But the problem here is that "bounded accuracy" doesn't mean the system can't have large bonuses to things. Otherwise Bless would be a busted spell instead of being "ok".

+5 from a Paladin and +2.5 from bless is not in the same universe as up to +20 from Indomitable.

The ability to trivialize or obviate things like saving throws is all over the place in the system- is Indomitable thrice a day worse than Heroes' Feast making the party immune to fear, poison, and granting advantage on all Wisdom saves for the day?

Yes it is. This uses a high level spell slot that maxes out at twice a day at 19th level and makes the party immune to two things. The advantage on the saves at the level you can get the spell (11th level) is far weaker than Indomitable already is at that level.

I've played with all of these things (Bless, Paladins, Heroes Feast and Indomitable) and at high level they are not comparable, Indomitable is far worse.

There are other problem spells that are bigger issues than this one, but those too are not as big a problem as Indomitable is.

And is the War Priest just deciding to give themselves +10 to hit really a problem, when almost no enemy has an AC over 19 anyways?

There are lots of enemies over 19AC and I don't think this is a problem for a couple reasons. A bonus to hit is not nearly as impactful as a bonus to a save and +10 is not as impactful as +20.

I don't think the Epic boons, including boon of Combat Prowess which makes your attacks automatically hit, are as broken as Indomitable.

Or what about the effects of Expertise on skill checks? A high level Rogue can have +17 to a check, with advantage if it uses a Tool and a Skill, and ignore low rolls, making DC 30 checks routinely.

A 20th level Rogue with a 20 in the stat AND expertise AND a tool proficiency has a +17 and advantage on a skill check in tier 4 and will succeed on a DC 30 check 64% of the time, failing the other 36% of the time (reliable talent does not help with this at all and is not relevant to it). A 20th level Fighter using Indomitable, a 20 stat and proficiency in the save has a +31 and makes a DC 32 or lower save automatically.

The DC would need to be 39 before the Fighter would have a 36% chance of failing it. A 39 DC skill check for the Rogue is impossible, even with a +17 and advantage.

Basically there was never any guarantee that super high bonuses wouldn't appear in 5e, and if there was, the 2014 PHB alone proves that it was a pack of lies. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but as long as your group is on board, at least you can change it.

They didn't appear until Indomitable.

Personally, being able to make three saves a day with 95% accuracy isn't going to make me want to play a Fighter.

Exactly, people wanted to play fighters already so this was not needed and should not have been added IMO.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Yes, you get legendary resist on the stuff you invest in. That to me is completely ok.

Hell, I'd be ok with a mid-level character having one save they almost never fail always, let alone X times per day. It isn't as if that breaks the game; most mid level monsters (let alone adventuring days, let along campaigns) feel like they feature multiple different types of save effects.

If someone can stonewall the push back from a giant because they invested crazy in strength? Great, that makes a evocative character concept realization in game.

With +9, you get an auto-save against your strong saves, and a decently good chance against a poor save.

By +20 you get an auto-save against basically everything.

i guess my thing is that at some point it's just math for the sake of math. like why am i adding +20 to the save? just give me the success at that point.

Being able to do something 2x a day is not twice as good as being able to do something 1x a day.

This is like "the second feat is not as good as the first". The 2nd can be almost as good; but by the time you hit 3, there is diminishing marginal returns.

(To express it formally: in a given adventuring day, there will be a bunch of opportunities to use indomitable. The more uses you have, the less important each use will be on average.)

You can see this on DMs use of legendary resists. If you had one, you'd save it for "omg I'm gonna lose if I fail", but with 3 the first one is often on "that is a lot of damage" or whatever.

A "classic" problem with every edition of fighter has been it gets a feature at low levels, and at higher levels it ... gets another instance of that feature. Be it a feat, another fighting style, or here another use of an ability (like indomidable).

Your first feat, fighting style, or use of an ability is better than your 3rd almost always (there are exceptions, when the ability has self-synergy, but that isn't common). When you get a feature at level 1-5 as your class feature for a level, then another use of the feature at level 16-20 ... also as the class feature at that level, it means that the level 16-20 level is worse than the level 1-5 level was.

This error is why 5e.14 had many martial classes multiclass levels 1-3 (or 4) from multiple classes; the level 1-4 features where as good, or better, than the higher level features of other classes, let alone the increased choice (because you can pick from more classes and subclasses) allowing more optimization.

this is an absolutely bizarre way of looking at things that i simply cannot understand.

At 20th level it is a +20 on the save. That is MUCH more than a +10 at 9th level and it is much more than having a max stat AND proficiency and if you have those two things as well it is a +31 total on the save.

A 9th level fighter with a 12 Wisdom rolling Indomitable has a +10, a 9th level Cleric with a 20 Wisdom has a +9.

A 20th level fighter with a 12 Wisdom rolling Indomitable has a +21, a 20th level Cleric with a 22 Wisdom has a +12.

you have to remember, though, that enemy save DCs are increasing at a similar rate along those levels. so yeah, sure, your wisdom save at level 9 is a +10, but that's against a DC 16. and your wisdom save might be a +21 at level 20, but that's against a DC 25-27 (since you're probably fighting an endgame boss at that point). that's really only a +1 at best.

No they are not a level 10 Fighter/10 something else can use indomitable once with a +10 on the save. A 20th level fighter can use Indomitable three times with a +20 on the save.

you...completely misunderstood what i was saying. i wasn't saying any given fighter using indomitable was getting the same mileage. i was saying the SAME fighter using any one of their CURRENT uses of indomitable is getting the same mileage out of each. a level 20 fighter is getting a +20 on each use of their indomitable.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Spell casters can make fighters immune too. Proficiency in all saves would be fine, I think they would need to phase it in thematically - Dexterity and Intelligence at 9th level, Wisdom at 13th level and Charisma at 17th level or something like that.

i'd probably do it like weak save (your choice) at levels 9 and 13, then strong save (your choice) at 11 and 17

 

[Chaltab]

To me the arguement that Fighters needed to be improved is not very compelling. I think Rogues and Barbarians needed to be improved. Fighters (and Monks) not so much.

Every class was improved (at least from a pure numbers standpoint).

The improvement to Indomitable is more about game feel and usability. In 2014 it did nothing to help you actually succeed on the save. Rolling twice is useless when you have a +1 on the save and the DC is 25. I'm pretty sure 3E and 5E are the only two editions in which an impossible saving throws are a thing and certainly the only two in which fighters have them.

 

[ECMO3]

ou have to remember, though, that enemy save DCs are increasing at a similar rate along those levels. so yeah, sure, your wisdom save at level 9 is a +10, but that's against a DC 16. and your wisdom save might be a +21 at level 20, but that's against a DC 25-27 (since you're probably fighting an endgame boss at that point). that's really only a +1 at best.

They are not increasing at a similar level, the monster DCs are increasing at a slower level.

I believe a Terrasque has the highest save in the Monster Manual at DC 27 and that is strength and con which the fighter is proficient in. A Terrasque is near the top end of a high difficulty encounter for a party of 8 20th level PCs.

Here are a few single boss monsters that are high difficulty encounter for 8 10th level PCs:
Balor - DC 20
Demilich - DC19
Sphinx of Valor - DC20
Adult gold Dragon - DC 21
Dragon Turtle - DC 19

So the boss monster DC increased between 6 and 8 over those 10 levels, while the Fighters bonus increased by 10. So the fighter's indomitable bonus is increasing at a faster rate than the DCs even when using the highest DC in the Monster Manual as the metric.

you...completely misunderstood what i was saying. i wasn't saying any given fighter using indomitable was getting the same mileage. i was saying the SAME fighter using any one of their CURRENT uses of indomitable is getting the same mileage out of each. a level 20 fighter is getting a +20 on each use of their indomitable.

Yes, compared to a +10 for a 10th level fighter. That is not the same mileage.

Using two of the monsters above with Strength saves - The 10th level fighter with a 20 strength using Indomitable fails a DC21 Gold Dragon Breath strength save 5% of the time, a Fighter with an 10 strength fails 30% of the time. A 20th level fighter with a a 10 or 20 strength using indomitable never fails the save against a Tarrasque DC27 swallow.

The difference would be even more dramatic if we were using something the fighter was not proficient in.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Here are a few single boss monsters that are high difficulty encounter for 8 10th level PCs:
Balor - DC 20
Demilich - DC19
Sphinx of Valor - DC20
Adult gold Dragon - DC 21
Dragon Turtle - DC 19

...why are you using 8 10th level pcs as your baseline? are you insane?

Yes, compared to a +10 for a 10th level fighter. That is not the same mileage.

GOOD THING I WAS NEVER COMPARING THAT.