D&D 5E 5' Step and AoO

[Prism]

I

I'm just thinking that making a 5' step and allowing an ally to step in front of you can work great but that isn't an option without specifically taking the Disengage action now.

Misty step spell for the arcane lot. Cleric and druids should be tough enough to handle some melee

 

[Joe Liker]

I always felt like the 5' step made it too hard to threaten ranged attackers.

Nowadays, when a melee combatant manages to close with you, you actually have to consider how you're going to deal with that rather than just automatically taking the good old risk-free 5' step.

Shocking grasp is great, of course, but another option is to try a spell with a saving throw rather than an attack roll. Poison spray is a good choice if you're down to cantrips, but there are many brilliant options if you still have spell slots.

 

[sithramir]

If something is so deadly that it will kill a caster on the very next round, it's probably deadly enough to at least knock out a non-caster with some lucky to hit rolls. I often play a caster away from the front lines, but when a melee foe, even a tough one, gets in close, I'll allow my caster to take hits without running away. I think that it balances out healing resources (specifically short rest hit dice ones) and it allows for attacking if the caster is not disengaging.

I was thinking of the upcoming battle I have set with a Wyvern. Wizard with 28 hps and melees who have 45+ hps. The Wyvern will HURT and almost guaranteed to slay the wizard but only a critical or huge rolls would down a melee. Now it'd likely take them down the next round almost guaranteed so it's a very dangerous creature for that level. So standing there would be bad and you likely want to use disengage but I guess I liked the idea of friends jumping in front of you which is somewhat gone. Constitution basically has to be your second most important stat in this edition.

If something that can kill you in one hit manages to get next to you someone on the front line didn't do their job very well.

Unfortunately most battles have no real front line in our fights. If you're in a more enclosed space like a cave then this probably won't happen quite as much (or your protector is on the floor already). Just trying to make sure i'm thinking how to move when the melee is spread out because something getting next to you is a bit more dangerous nowadays with less options.

 

[ranger69]

There is no 5' step, only the disengage action.

But the ONLY thing that causes an AoO is moving out of an enemies reach, there is no reason for the caster to back away, he can cast spells all day long next to the enemy if he wishes. I will point out the shocking grasp cantrip is amazing for this, you attack the enemy if it hits does nice damage and the target can't take reactions, so the wizard just moves away.

The only penalty for being next to an enemy is disadvantage on ranged attack, this does apply to ranged spells and the only thing a spellcaster needs to be concerned with.

Also of note the ranged attack disadvantage penalty is only if within 5 feet, you don't provoke AoO until you leave reach, so against a giant for example you back up so you are 10' away and shoot your arrow or cast your ranged spell, you don't provoke an attack for moving and you don't take disadvantage on the attack roll.

One more thing just to be clear, moving out of the enemies reach is exactly that, you can run a circle around the enemy and not provoke an AoO, only moving away from the enemy and leaving his reach provokes.

And since I think it needs to be said, the Disengage action makes you immune to ALL attacks of opportunity for the turn so a common tactic is to use it to run through lines of enemies to get to the target in the back.

To me running through lines of enemies to get to a target at the back is engaging, not disengaging. Therefore I would be inclined to disallow it's use in that way. Or of course the opponents can use that tactic also.

 

[KarinsDad]

I was thinking of the upcoming battle I have set with a Wyvern. Wizard with 28 hps and melees who have 45+ hps. The Wyvern will HURT and almost guaranteed to slay the wizard but only a critical or huge rolls would down a melee. Now it'd likely take them down the next round almost guaranteed so it's a very dangerous creature for that level. So standing there would be bad and you likely want to use disengage but I guess I liked the idea of friends jumping in front of you which is somewhat gone.

A Wizard at 5th level should have at least some defensive spells by then to help (Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step, Invisibility, Haste, or at least minimally Mage Armor/Shield). Not every attack should hit.

Relying on other PCs to ensure safety seems like a subpar tactic.

Constitution basically has to be your second most important stat in this edition.

I think that Dex gives Con a run for its money. Sure, the Wyvern does mega-damage with poison, but bonuses to hit/damage (if using a ranged weapon), stealth, Dex saves and AC do add up over the long run.

My PC wizard almost never gets damaged, but that's because he hangs back a bit and uses a lot of spells like Web and Fog Cloud to control the battlefield against tougher foes. But in the last battle, the Roper was kicking everyone's butt (although to be fair, the Wizard never got damaged by the Roper since the DM rolled randomly as to which grabbed PC got bit by the Roper and the Wizard's number never came up, but the Rogue took a dirt nap).

Unfortunately most battles have no real front line in our fights. If you're in a more enclosed space like a cave then this probably won't happen quite as much (or your protector is on the floor already). Just trying to make sure i'm thinking how to move when the melee is spread out because something getting next to you is a bit more dangerous nowadays with less options.

The main idea is to stay at least 40 plus feet away from any creature not already engaged, and to prepare a few spells for when bad things happen.

 

[Paraxis]

To me running through lines of enemies to get to a target at the back is engaging, not disengaging. Therefore I would be inclined to disallow it's use in that way. Or of course the opponents can use that tactic also.

In my games the rules are the rules, the players can be creative in how to use them. And yes the enemies can use the same tactic and I had some goblin rogues with cunning action do so against the party cleric to the dissatisfaction of team hero.

 

[ranger69]

In my games the rules are the rules, the players can be creative in how to use them. And yes the enemies can use the same tactic and I had some goblin rogues with cunning action do so against the party cleric to the dissatisfaction of team hero.

That's fine. Different, but equally valid, viewpoints, hope we can agree?

 

[Paraxis]

That's fine. Different, but equally valid, viewpoints, hope we can agree?

Sure we can, I am not sitting at your table playing in your game. If I was there would be a disagreement about how the word disengage has nothing to do with the action in the game. There are real world definitions of words and then the game term definitions.

 

[ranger69]

Sure we can, I am not sitting at your table playing in your game. If I was there would be a disagreement about how the word disengage has nothing to do with the action in the game. There are real world definitions of words and then the game term definitions.

Yes, if we were at the same table. If you are DM your version correct, hope you would accept my version if DM. Another DM may have another interpretation.

So long as everybody at the table is enjoying the game.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I always felt like the 5' step made it too hard to threaten ranged attackers.

Nowadays, when a melee combatant manages to close with you, you actually have to consider how you're going to deal with that rather than just automatically taking the good old risk-free 5' step.

Shocking grasp is great, of course, but another option is to try a spell with a saving throw rather than an attack roll. Poison spray is a good choice if you're down to cantrips, but there are many brilliant options if you still have spell slots.

Thunderwave: push 'em away, then move. Or get your fighter type with protection style to get beside you, then move, he can impose disad on the OA by the monster, you'll be fine (esp with Shield up your sleeve, just in case). Or Fog Cloud then move. Or Msty step teleport. Or...