5' Step Ready Rule Proposal

[S'mon]

I suggest the following, to deal with the plausibility problem ( I find) of archers in melee who can 5' step away from the swordsman attacking them and get a full round's worth of shots into his face, with no AoO. I think archers in melee should be expected to resort to melee weapons, not fight with bows gun-fu style!

5' Step Ready Rule:

1. You can Ready a 5' step on your turn as a Free Action, provided you have not otherwise moved on your turn. So you could full attack and ready a 5' step.

2. If you have moved on your turn, you can still Ready a 5' step as a Move-Equivalent (not Standard) action. So you could 5' step, standard-attack, and Ready another 5' step.

Thoughts?

 

[wocky]

You might be right about the lack of realism of having an archer shooting when practically in Melee but game-wise:

- If a tank goes hand to hand with an archer, the archer is probably done. Even with 5' steps, it's not a good tactic.

- Most encounters I've been in start with enemies at close range, so archers miss the chance to shine at their best. Even worse... who would realistically carry a bow when dungeon crawling? (I might be wrong at this, as I'm no weapon-theory buff, but I think that bows don't go along with the short distances niches and sharp corners of a dungeon).

- If you think of your archer in the line of Legolas in LOTR (the movie), then you should think of the "5' step and face full of arrows" as a very realistic option.

 

[Hardhead]

We have our own solution for this problem:

"If a character takes a 5' step out of a threatened space, then preforms an action that invokes an attack of of opportunity, any characters that were threatening him before his move gain an attack of opportunity."

Basically, it's assumed that he's shooting arrows or casting a spell or whatever while he moves.

The one exception to this rule is drinking potions.

 

[S'mon]

Thanks Hardhead, that's an interesting idea.

 

[Darklone]

- Most encounters I've been in start with enemies at close range, so archers miss the chance to shine at their best. Even worse... who would realistically carry a bow when dungeon crawling? (I might be wrong at this, as I'm no weapon-theory buff, but I think that bows don't go along with the short distances niches and sharp corners of a dungeon).

It's not so hard. Played one life-dungeon Larp... we had one walking shield (tank with towershield), two spear fighters, and two archers behind them... then me as backup. Worked wonderfully, even in crowded quarters.

Edit: Hardhead, I played two years with that houserule and can't say I didn't like it... just the spellcasters hated it.

 

[CombatWombat51]

Sounds interesting, lemme see if I understand...

Tank and Archer are in melee, and Tank readies a 5' step to follow.

Archer's Initiative: Archer readies 5' step away if Tank follows. Archer takes 5' step back, and triggers Tank's 5' step. Tank's 5' step triggers Archer's second 5' step back. Archer is 5' away, and standard attack on tank.

Tank readies 5' step if Archer runs. Tank 5' steps forward and makes a standard attack.

And repeat.

Did I understand that right? Instead of each combatant getting a full attack, they only get a standard attack, supposing they're just concentrating on stabbing/shooting each other?

 

[Hardhead]

It's not so hard. Played one life-dungeon Larp... we had one walking shield (tank with towershield), two spear fighters, and two archers behind them... then me as backup. Worked wonderfully, even in crowded quarters.

Edit: Hardhead, I played two years with that houserule and can't say I didn't like it... just the spellcasters hated it.

Well, IMO, Spellcasters shouldn't be trying to cast in melee anyway.

It makes Concentration much more important, though. I've seen wizards (and especially sorcerers with their dearth of skill points) just completly ignore Concentration because of the 5' step rule. With the above house rule, they can't afford to.

 

[S'mon]

Sounds interesting, lemme see if I understand...

Tank and Archer are in melee, and Tank readies a 5' step to follow.

Archer's Initiative: Archer readies 5' step away if Tank follows. Archer takes 5' step back, and triggers Tank's 5' step. Tank's 5' step triggers Archer's second 5' step back. Archer is 5' away, and standard attack on tank.

Tank readies 5' step if Archer runs. Tank 5' steps forward and makes a standard attack.

And repeat.

Did I understand that right? Instead of each combatant getting a full attack, they only get a standard attack, supposing they're just concentrating on stabbing/shooting each other?

The archer wouldn't be able to ready a 5' step if Tank follows, if he still wanted to attack without provoking an AoO. The archer could 5' step back & fire once (& ready?) on his action, but the action would be interrupted by the tank's 5' step + AoO, which would come after the archer's 1st 5' step but _before_ the archer fired, ie before the archer could ready another 5' step & well before any readied action of his could take place.

I think in theory this might work well & is certainly more realistic, but might not be worth the added complexity. I do think anything allowing 2 5' steps in a round may be problematic though, so confining it to a free readied 5' step if you haven't already moved might be better - OTOH that makes it easy for a smart archer never to allow the opponent ever to set up a readied 5' step. Hardhead's rule may well be better & is certainly simpler.

 

[CombatWombat51]

The archer could 5' step back & fire once (& ready?) on his action, but the action would be interrupted by the tank's 5' step + AoO, which would come after the archer's 1st 5' step but _before_ the archer fired, ie before the archer could ready another 5' step & well before any readied action of his could take place.

I was thinking that the archer could ready his action before he took his 5' step, as the first thing he does on his action.

1. Archer readies

2. Archer steps back

3. Archer's move triggers Tank's move. However, Archer hasn't shot yet, so Tank doesn't get an AoO yet.

4. Tank's move triggers Archer's move, then Archer fires from safety.

I appologize if I'm repeating myself, I just wanna make sure we're being clear, and I don't have Hype's mind for this kind of logic

I think in theory this might work well & is certainly more realistic, but might not be worth the added complexity. I do think anything allowing 2 5' steps in a round may be problematic though, so confining it to a free readied 5' step if you haven't already moved might be better - OTOH that makes it easy for a smart archer never to allow the opponent ever to set up a readied 5' step. Hardhead's rule may well be better & is certainly simpler.

I do think Hardhead's rule is simpler, but I dunno about better. Isn't a major point of a 5' step to avoid AoO's? If you grant AoO's anyway, then the only use for a 5' step would be to allow fighter-types to creep around to maximize their opportunities for full attacks and cleave.

Anyhow, I certainly agree that Archer taking a step back from Tank and feeding him a face full of arrows is lame. But, so is just standing there and hacking at each other statically. I dunno, I prefer combat with some movement in it, but I don't know what to do about it yet. I've got enough on my creative plate as it is

 

[S'mon]

I was thinking that the archer could ready his action before he took his 5' step, as the first thing he does on his action.

1. Archer readies

2. Archer steps back

3. Archer's move triggers Tank's move. However, Archer hasn't shot yet, so Tank doesn't get an AoO yet.

4. Tank's move triggers Archer's move, then Archer fires from safety.

I appologize if I'm repeating myself, I just wanna make sure we're being clear, and I don't have Hype's mind for this kind of logic

I do think Hardhead's rule is simpler, but I dunno about better. Isn't a major point of a 5' step to avoid AoO's? If you grant AoO's anyway, then the only use for a 5' step would be to allow fighter-types to creep around to maximize their opportunities for full attacks and cleave.

Anyhow, I certainly agree that Archer taking a step back from Tank and feeding him a face full of arrows is lame. But, so is just standing there and hacking at each other statically. I dunno, I prefer combat with some movement in it, but I don't know what to do about it yet. I've got enough on my creative plate as it is

1. You're hurtiing my brain If the archer Readies at the start of his action, that means he's 'holding' - you can't Ready and yet still keep on doing stuff, it's not a Contingency spell! Readied means you're not doing anything more until the ready-trigger occurs, so you can only Ready at the _end_ of your action, not the start of it.

2. I think that basically "the only use for a 5' step would be to allow fighter-types to creep around to maximize their opportunities for full attacks and cleave" is a good idea, yes. The 5' step stops combat being too static, the gun-fu-archer is an unfortunate side effect IMO.