D&D 5E 50th Anniversary and beyond

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
I believe I found it.

This is the inciting question, with his first response immediately after. Here is his first follow-up I think is actually relevant, and contains the first reference to the offensive idiom, with the next 8 to 10 or so posts following that up with more detailed answers.

If that's what you're referencing, I entirely disagree with your reading. I think Gary is very explicitly talking about the alignment system in the game and what a paladin would believe would be Lawful Good. It reads very much as, "this is how I would run the scenario," and not remotely like, "this is how the real world works." I have great difficulty taking what is said there and and calling it Gygax's personal philosophy and not just how the game is set up.

There are plenty of other examples that show Gary as clearly a man of his own generation at best, but I just don't see it here unless you're reaching for that conclusion from the start. Even then, I don't really think it's all that useful to take everything we don't like about the game and sweep it under the rug of, "Gary Gygax wasn't a very progressive individual." It feels like trying to exonerate it. I'd rather just take the game as it is or was, with blame falling on players who missed the problems as much as on any misguidance of the creators. That's kind of what that platitude about "it was wrong then as it is wrong now" means when you take it to heart.

He cites real life. 🤷‍♂️ He quotes a phrase historically used to justify the slaughter of noncombatant women & children, and references a specific person who used it for that purpose.

You're correct that in the Dragonsfoot thread Gygax is talking about what he considers to be Lawful Good, indeed, paladin, behaviour within the fictional world of D&D. But he also uses claims about the real world to justify that behaviour.

In the thread, Gygax says there are three different circumstances in which a Lawful Good paladin could kill prisoners:
1) Meting out punishment for a crime. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good."
2) Executing a convert so as to prevent the possibility of backsliding. "A paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide."
3) "The old addage about nits making lice applies."

Both (1) and (3) are justified by reference to the real world. In the case of (1) Gygax talks about the brutal "Anglo-Saxon punishment for rape and/or murder of a woman". In support of (3) he provides the following argument (emphasis mine):


Gygax is making a claim about the real world. He is saying that it is a "fact" that the women and children of ethnic groups considered to be the "enemy" will produce more enemies. This "fact" was used by Colonel Chivington and others to justify genocide.

Historical Background on "Nits Make Lice"

In 1864, Colonel John Chivington presided over a massacre of nearly two hundred Cheyenne and Arapaho "elders, women, warriors, and children" (Kane) at Sand Creek in Colorado. Katie Kane, Nits Make Lice: Drogheda, Sand Creek, and the Poetics of Colonial Extermination (1999):

In the outcry among citizens of the Eastern part of the United States following the genocide at Sand Creek, a congressional hearing was held to investigate the charges of excessive violence and murder carried out by the Third Cavalry Regiment of Colorado Territory under the order of John Chivington. One congressional witness, S. E. Browne, credited Chivington with uttering the phrase that would resonate throughout the subsequent history of U.S.-Native American relations. Browne recalled the colonel's articulation of his strategy with regard to Colorado's "Indian problem": "early September or late in August last I heard Colonel Chivington in a public speech announce that his policy was to 'kill and scalp all, little and big; that nits made lice.'"​

Kay Wright Lewis, A Curse Upon the Nation (2017), on the term's 17th century origins:

John Nalson, an English clergyman and historian, was told by a captain in the English army that "no manner of Compassion or Discrimination was shewed either to Age or Sex, but that the little Children were promiscuously sufferers with the Gulley [a large knife], and that if any who had some grains of Compassion reprehended the Soldiers for this unchristian inhumanity, they would scoffingly reply, Why? Nits will be Lice, and so would dispatch them." It is at this point that "the saying 'Nits will make lice,' which was constantly employed to justify the murder of Irish children," became part of English vernacular.​

Now, do I think Gygax would acknowledge in reality that Sand Creek was an atrocity? I think so. I suspect where him being a man of his generation comes in, is that he may not have been really acknowledging to himself what he was saying here. What implicit pro-US Westward Expansion, anti-NA propaganda he accepted as a boy and the degree to which he was still not questioning it.
 

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Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Insisting on nuance and shades of gray for one's fantasy time makes the game less fun for some people. And those people aren't monsters for feeling that way. So we need to find a way that allows for good guy/bad guy situations that doesnt offend your players.
I think that's reasonable. But given the fact that the community has been having these debates for decades now, it's probably worth explicitly discussing with one's table, and thinking about it when conceptualizing one's campaign world.

IIRC in James Maliszewski's Dwimmermount campaign, he went back to pig-faced orcs, and envisioned them as actually being genetically uplifted pigs with demon spirits inserted into them. So not a natural intelligent humanoid species, per se.

Another approach is to have bad guys who have motivations like people, and can potentially be negotiated with. I've been playing in a Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign all this year and I've been kind of pleasantly surprised how often this comes up- ostensible monster races who can be talked to and negotiated with, and potentially recruited and brought peaceably into Ten Towns.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Which works great if your players are interested in negotiating and making enemies into friends in their roleplaying experience. If instead they want to kick ass and chew bubblegum, a different approach is needed.
 


Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Which works great if your players are interested in negotiating and making enemies into friends in their roleplaying experience. If instead they want to kick ass and chew bubblegum, a different approach is needed.

"Are all orcs evil? No. Are these orcs evil? Yes."

Done.
Yup. Or (for example) the Malizewski approach I cited.
 
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BookTenTiger

He / Him
Which works great if your players are interested in negotiating and making enemies into friends in their roleplaying experience. If instead they want to kick ass and chew bubblegum, a different approach is needed.
Also I don't understand why any approach is needed for a kick ass chew bubblegum type game. As far as I know, in those kinds of games you would also attack whatever is in front of you no matter if it's an orc or a human. So it makes no difference if WotC clarified that not all orcs are evil.
 

At a certain point you run into trolley car philosophical moral dilemmas though. I'm not saying Gygax was right (I disagree with a lot of his ideas and I don't think I would have ever wanted him as a DM), but it is just a game where impossible things may be possible. Things that have no relationship to the real world.

I think this is fair. Alignment as a system has always been incredibly fragile, inconsistent, and easy to manipulate. Real world morality is wholly subjective. D&D morality is "wholly objective" (which is a total lie, it's whatever the DM says it is). Of course it falls apart.

I think alignment's primary purpose was to make the teams clear on who you fight and who you don't. That's why it was Lawful vs Chaotic in the original game. Adding the second axis made it just realistic enough to feel like it should be analogous, but, no, it's still terrible. You always end up with deontology vs consequences vs pragmatics vs virtue vs whatever other philosophical school supports the outcomes you want.

Personally I just never put the trolley car problem in my games because this is a philosophical debate that never, ever, ends. Unless, of course, there's a 3rd option like taking a great risk and derailing the trolley car with the PCs on board.

I've never put ad hoc prisoner killing or transporting in my games. The problem isn't that it's not realistic or that the morality doesn't work. The problem is that the players are there to play Dungeons & Dragons, not Escorts & Escapees. Prisoners feels like a great way for the DM to be incredibly obnoxious and force the game to be as aggravating as possible. The players will be motivated to kill the prisoners because (a) they want to get back to the part of the game the enjoy, not waste all session escorting prisoners, and (b) the players know imaginary prisoners aren't real.

I have encountered it in other people's games. Often it's handwaved away when the DM gets frustrated with it.

I don't see a problem with different tables using different moralities as long as the table understands the purpose of alignment as it's being used at the table. We often don't talk about the morality of a war game or a video game, so why does every table need to address the nature of morality in D&D? But for the published, general game it's going to be best if it picks something that doesn't result in colonialism or genocide being labelled explicitly "good".
 

HammerMan

Legend
I've never put ad hoc prisoner killing or transporting in my games. The problem isn't that it's not realistic or that the morality doesn't work. The problem is that the players are there to play Dungeons & Dragons, not Escorts & Escapees. Prisoners feels like a great way for the DM to be incredibly obnoxious and force the game to be as aggravating as possible. The players will be motivated to kill the prisoners because (a) they want to get back to the part of the game the enjoy, not waste all session escorting prisoners, and (b) the players know imaginary prisoners aren't real.

I have encountered it in other people's games. Often it's handwaved away when the DM gets frustrated with it.
back in 3e we had a DM that would have intelligent living creatures surrender if it looked like 1 hit could down them (that sometimes meant goblins surrendering pre initiative.) then he would delight in telling us there was nothing we could do... there wasn't an arkahm asylme to bring bad guys to, and if we kill them we turn evil... He didn't last long in our group.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think this is fair. Alignment as a system has always been incredibly fragile, inconsistent, and easy to manipulate. Real world morality is wholly subjective. D&D morality is "wholly objective" (which is a total lie, it's whatever the DM says it is). Of course it falls apart.

I think alignment's primary purpose was to make the teams clear on who you fight and who you don't. That's why it was Lawful vs Chaotic in the original game. Adding the second axis made it just realistic enough to feel like it should be analogous, but, no, it's still terrible. You always end up with deontology vs consequences vs pragmatics vs virtue vs whatever other philosophical school supports the outcomes you want.



I've never put ad hoc prisoner killing or transporting in my games. The problem isn't that it's not realistic or that the morality doesn't work. The problem is that the players are there to play Dungeons & Dragons, not Escorts & Escapees. Prisoners feels like a great way for the DM to be incredibly obnoxious and force the game to be as aggravating as possible. The players will be motivated to kill the prisoners because (a) they want to get back to the part of the game the enjoy, not waste all session escorting prisoners, and (b) the players know imaginary prisoners aren't real.

I have encountered it in other people's games. Often it's handwaved away when the DM gets frustrated with it.

I don't see a problem with different tables using different moralities as long as the table understands the purpose of alignment as it's being used at the table. We often don't talk about the morality of a war game or a video game, so why does every table need to address the nature of morality in D&D? But for the published, general game it's going to be best if it picks something that doesn't result in colonialism or genocide being labelled explicitly "good".
One of the discussions I have with players is that the default in my world is that it's quite brutal. There are no long term prisons (which are a relatively modern invention with exceptions for the wealthy) and justice is swift and final most of the time. There are exceptions from time to time. People have changed the course of campaigns by befriending and aiding a person who was supposed to grow into being a BBEG. So yeah, escorting prisoners? Not really a issue.

But if I'm playing StarCraft? I don't have too many qualms about blowing up that Zerg Hatchery. I don't even really think about it much. If I were to loosely base my next campaign on StarCraft using Esper Genesis would it suddenly become controversial? Or is it okay because Zergs are bugs and bugs are icky?

In any case, my hope for [EDIT]5E the next version[/EDIT] is that they spend more time talking about the role of alignment, especially in the MM. That there are still alignment guidelines for monsters, but that it's more clearly stated that it's just a default and only representative of the enemy monsters that you face while going back to some kind of verbiage like frequently or usually. I'm assuming that won't happen, that several entries will just have "any" which I personally think takes away something. Especially for those people that just want a beer and pretzels game. Or even for those who want more complexity in their games, but occasionally still want Zerg to the throw at the PCs.
 
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Insisting on nuance and shades of gray for one's fantasy time makes the game less fun for some people. And those people aren't monsters for feeling that way. So we need to find a way that allows for good guy/bad guy situations that doesnt offend your players.
No. People are not monsters... That is exactly the point.

(Everything I said does not mean every Orc will have a rich backstory and would not attack on sight. They have their predjudices too... but in the end, they should have a chance to become good.)
 

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