D&D 5E 50th Anniversary and beyond

He cites real life. 🤷‍♂️ He quotes a phrase historically used to justify the slaughter of noncombatant women & children, and references a specific person who used it for that purpose.

So what? He's allowed to use rhetoric in his arguments.

He cites real life to show that, historically, "justice" was often brutal and swift. That "an eye for an eye" is quite a common standard of law. That it existed as such in our world and may exist as such in a fantasy world, too. Indeed, Gary doesn't mention it, but when the Bible talks about "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" it's quite often interpreted as a call for an appropriate and measured punishment, since at the time the punishment for a crime was often, by law, much more severe than the crime itself!

As for the Chivington quote, Gygax himself points out that lots of people have used the same logic to justify massacres. And the saying is true in it's most literal interpretation. If X is always evil, then it's good to destroy all X. You want to say that because the bolded part isn't always true and generates really unpleasant side effects when applied to races of people, that the italicized half isn't a logical conclusion. That's balderdash! We're injecting our own premises into that argument. Ideas about how we think because that's how we operate. And that's how we want whole peoples to be treated, because doing otherwise reminds us of all the horrors of our world when that didn't happen. It reminds us of what made us monsters. We have good reasons to want to move away from that, but that's still how it originally worked.

We're not really extending the same courtesy to everything. We still have "always Evil" in D&D. Demons. Or devils. Or undead. Or mind flayers. Or beholders. Or green hags. Or chimera. Or efreet. Or red dragons. Take any of those and plug them into "If X is always evil, then it's good to destroy all X." You've probably played more than one PC that would agree with those statements. It's less problematic to have a game where it's never used as a label for whole races of people. But it's not not problematic for sapient creatures of a given class to have identical and basically immutable morality... but only as long as they're inhuman.

The truth is that the game needs monsters, and monsters make us uncomfortable. Because we know human monsters are real. So we're going to be very careful to not make the game's actual monsters too much like us. This hair is a lot finer than people think it is.

Like you look at the statements made about gnolls... I really don't think that's an improvement. "Oh, we'll just categorize the whole race of peoples into fiends and now it's okay." Like a whole race of "always Evil" humanoids is bad, but I don't think a whole type of fiend being "always Evil" is really a significant improvement. It's still eliminating agency and free will and using language reminiscent of colonialism and genocide when you describe them. There's nothing stopping fiends from having a culture or a society.

At some point you have to just... draw an arbitrary line and say, "Eh, that's good enough. I'm okay with that. We know what we mean, and it's just a game. Let's roll some dice and kill some monsters and take their stuff and call ourselves heroes!" I think the new line is better than the old line, but we're still just drawing that arbitrary line.
 

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In any case, my hope for [EDIT]5E the next version[/EDIT] is that they spend more time talking about the role of alignment, especially in the MM. That there are still alignment guidelines for monsters, but that it's more clearly stated that it's just a default and only representative of the enemy monsters that you face while going back to some kind of verbiage like frequently or usually. I'm assuming that won't happen, that several entries will just have "any" which I personally think takes away something. Especially for those people that just want a beer and pretzels game. Or even for those who want more complexity in their games, but occasionally still want Zerg to the throw at the PCs.

For my campaigns I've largely already moved alignment to only apply to:

1. Outer planes
2. Deities or powers
3. Planar creatures that directly serve deities or powers
4. Sentient magic items created for an aligned power, deity, or purpose
5. Organizations (states, cities, churches, guilds, orders, cultures, subcultures, movements, etc.)

And that's it.

So, Moradin is Lawful Good, and the plane Moradin resides on is Lawful Good, and the direct celestial servants of Moradin are Lawful Good, and the church of Moradin is Lawful Good, and the dwarven city where worshippers of Moradin live is Lawful Neutral.

But every other individual is unaligned. A cleric of Moradin could be honest and just, while another could be compassionate and loyal, and yet another could be well-intentioned but selfish, and so on. Alignment is too inflexible to apply to the nature of an individual creature.

Alignment then is just a way to organize the big things in relation to each other. The closest an individual mortal ever gets to having an alignment is when they're an absolute leader of an organization.

An alignment is an idea that has authority. Mortals can't do that alone.
 

Oofta

Legend
For my campaigns I've largely already moved alignment to only apply to:

1. Outer planes
2. Deities or powers
3. Planar creatures that directly serve deities or powers
4. Sentient magic items created for an aligned power, deity, or purpose
5. Organizations (states, cities, churches, guilds, orders, cultures, subcultures, movements, etc.)

And that's it.

So, Moradin is Lawful Good, and the plane Moradin resides on is Lawful Good, and the direct celestial servants of Moradin are Lawful Good, and the church of Moradin is Lawful Good, and the dwarven city where worshippers of Moradin live is Lawful Neutral.

But every other individual is unaligned. A cleric of Moradin could be honest and just, while another could be compassionate and loyal, and yet another could be well-intentioned but selfish, and so on. Alignment is too inflexible to apply to the nature of an individual creature.

Alignment then is just a way to organize the big things in relation to each other. The closest an individual mortal ever gets to having an alignment is when they're an absolute leader of an organization.

An alignment is an idea that has authority. Mortals can't do that alone.
When I use alignment, it's just sort of a quick crutch and starting point. Sometimes useful, just as often ignored, never particularly ironclad or set in stone. Like many things in D&D it's a vast oversimplification.
 

WotC has a pretty good grasp on who is representative of the player base as a whole. They are producing best seller after best seller for over half a decade now. And they do A LOT of surveys and market research to know who is buying and who would buy their books.
They may know who. I doubt they know why. Unless they’ve done another massive playtest and survey like the one they did for Next.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They may know who. I doubt they know why. Unless they’ve done another massive playtest and survey like the one they did for Next.
Sometimes I wonder if WotC is giving people what they want, or if they are giving people what they want to give them, and leveraging their social presence to convince us it's what we want. Either way, the stockholders are happy.
 





Btw: it is not uncommon that becoming a lawful good "paladin" is often the first step of becoming evil in fiction and games:

  • Darth Vader
  • Athas in Warcraft3

It is a fine line betweem those two extremes. Your Zeal can easily turn into Wrath.

To the bible: yes, an eye for an eye was a measured approach back then. And it might be appropriate for a game playing in such a world. It is still something you should voluntarily opt into, but it should not be the default.
I do like alignment and think it should remain in DnD. But as other's already said: it should be reserved for non-humanoids and INDIVDUALS.
 

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