D&D 5E [5E] A Rogue "unnerf" - Extra Attack

[coolAlias]

Here are some things that can provide an extra (usually reaction-based) Sneak Attack opportunity:

• Attacks of Opportunity (very DM / tactics dependent)
• Sentinel feat for more reliable AoO plus when an ally is attacked instead of you
• Mage Slayer feat grants AoO against spellcasters within 5 feet
• Readying an Attack allows extra SA opportunity when hasted
• Battlemaster "Commander's Strike" maneuver from an ally
• Battlemaster "Riposte" maneuver gained via multiclassing or Martial Adept feat, enemy must attack you and miss
• Thief's Reflexes (Thief archetype only at level 17) grants two turns on the first round of combat unless you are surprised
• Orcish Fury feat when you're dropped to 0 hp but not killed outright (XGtE)
• Hydra

Are there any I'm missing?

From this list, it seems clear that the vast majority of reaction-based SA opportunities require either a feat investment or resource expenditure (superiority die or spells).

The feat-based reaction opportunities are also situational, some more than others, so that it is unlikely to occur every round (but potentially could with good positioning and tactics for e.g. Sentinel).

Rogues must also consider that they only have 1 reaction per round, so all of the above compete with Uncanny Dodge and any other reaction-based features the rogue might have access to. The only one that does not require the character's reaction is Thief's Reflexes, and that only comes online at 17th level.

What all that says to me is that granting a reliable second SA each round, especially one that does not use the character's reaction, is something that should only be done with extreme caution, lots of play-testing, and player feedback.

That said, it's your table - do whatever you want.

 

[Ashrym]

"Expertise is not important because DCs are low anyways".

On the contrary, experise is awesome. Extremely high bonuses are over-rated. I take expertise in a proficiency with a poor ability modifier to get a great bonus instead of a needlessly high bonus.

 

[Immoralkickass]

Read every post in the thread. Then maybe you will be able to contribute in a meaningful way. If you are still under the delusion that the OP was about granting a second SA, you are woefully ignorant.

I have read them, and they just made me cringe. I called out your logic on buffing rogues damage when you hate minmaxing, and you have yet to answer that.

For the umpteenth time:

Rogues already get a second Sneak Attack each round as soon as they can grab a second (re)action.

If you can't see that, you are only revealing your own ignorance. Please consider who might be the clown here before you call other posters names.

Have a nice day

Of course i can see that, but you are asking for the 2nd sneak attack to be more reliable. I dont think many people will agree to that. That 2nd sneak attack is a bonus, not a staple.

Yeesh, why the tone? I basically even agree with the gist of what you're saying but being that hostile doesn't help your case any.

I am blunt, i admit that. But people hate to hear the truth, that's for sure. They hate to know they are wrong. They dont understand balance, yet give stupid suggestions. In the case of @CapnZapp , one of the most moronic statements is 'Expertise is not important because DCs are low'. Thats like saying high attack modifiers are not important because ACs are low anyway, or just roll high. If you can't see the stupidity in that statement, you have no hope.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I have read them, and they just made me cringe. I called out your logic on buffing rogues damage when you hate minmaxing, and you have yet to answer that.

Fortunately for me, I don't have to justify anything to you about my reasons, beliefs, etc. The logic is right there in the OP, so you can figure it out from there. If from that and the posts in the thread, you can't figure it out, well... that is just something you will have to deal with I suppose. You will not be receiving any further responses from me. Good-bye and best of luck in your game!

 

[CapnZapp]

Here are some things that can provide an extra (usually reaction-based) Sneak Attack opportunity:

• Attacks of Opportunity (very DM / tactics dependent)
• Sentinel feat for more reliable AoO plus when an ally is attacked instead of you
• Mage Slayer feat grants AoO against spellcasters within 5 feet
• Readying an Attack allows extra SA opportunity when hasted
• Battlemaster "Commander's Strike" maneuver from an ally
• Battlemaster "Riposte" maneuver gained via multiclassing or Martial Adept feat, enemy must attack you and miss
• Thief's Reflexes (Thief archetype only at level 17) grants two turns on the first round of combat unless you are surprised
• Orcish Fury feat when you're dropped to 0 hp but not killed outright (XGtE)
• Hydra [emoji14]

Are there any I'm missing?

From this list, it seems clear that the vast majority of reaction-based SA opportunities require either a feat investment or resource expenditure (superiority die or spells).

The feat-based reaction opportunities are also situational, some more than others, so that it is unlikely to occur every round (but potentially could with good positioning and tactics for e.g. Sentinel).

Rogues must also consider that they only have 1 reaction per round, so all of the above compete with Uncanny Dodge and any other reaction-based features the rogue might have access to. The only one that does not require the character's reaction is Thief's Reflexes, and that only comes online at 17th level.

What all that says to me is that granting a reliable second SA each round, especially one that does not use the character's reaction, is something that should only be done with extreme caution, lots of play-testing, and player feedback.

That said, it's your table - do whatever you want.

What this tells me is instead:

From a new player's perspective Rogues are weirdly un-5E-like in that they really reward system mastery in a way more associated with, say, 3E.

Just grokking the difference between "turn" and "round" is a big ask.

So imagine how much friendlier the game becomes with a 2nd SA feat!


In other words, arguing such a feat shortchanges the system mastery you otherwise need to set up that 2nd SA might have worked in d20.

In the context of 5th edition, all it does is reinforce my point! [emoji846]

 

[CapnZapp]

That 2nd sneak attack is a bonus, not a staple.

Since you seem to appreciate bluntness:

You Sir are a piss-poor min-maxer if you think the 2nd SA is a "bonus".

It makes me think of how WotC tried to present the bonus action as a "bonus" you don't have unless you have it.

We all know how that went. (To spell it out, every minmaxer makes sure to have at least one useful bonus action to take each round)

Having said that, I will start using the report button unless you tone down your confrontational style. This post should be seen as an exception, not an escalation.

 

[Immoralkickass]

On the contrary, experise is awesome. Extremely high bonuses are over-rated. I take expertise in a proficiency with a poor ability modifier to get a great bonus instead of a needlessly high bonus.

I get what you mean, but extremely high bonuses are not overrated because of one thing: Reliable Talent. Once you get that, having a very high bonus would almost guarantee that you never fail a skill check in that particular skill unless the DC is 25+.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You abhor min/maxing, yet you want Rogues to have Extra Attack? And the title is 'Unnerf' Rogues, which could also mean, 'Buff Roags plz?'

I think that this thread was created in the context of the OP's houserules, - particularly those discussed in a different thread in which they made the Rogue considerably less special and unique in the other pillars of the game.
Hence this thread to improve their combat capability to balance the loss for the Rogue in the Exploration and Social aspects.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think that this thread was created in the context of the OP's houserules, - particularly those discussed in a different thread in which they made the Rogue considerably less special and unique in the other pillars of the game.
Hence this thread to improve their combat capability to balance the loss for the Rogue in the Exploration and Social aspects.

Our table is combat heavy due to the nature of the campaign. We have a good amount of exploration and social still, but maybe not as much as other tables. We've already added more "options" for a rogue in combat via Cunning Action, and the Second Strike (using reaction) grants the second possible attack provided the first misses. This yields a second change for the SA to land, without adding damage for a simple straight second attack via Extra Attack. Also, the cost of using reaction makes the player choose between offense and defense, which personally I like a lot.

As for the other threads the nutshell result is this:

We removed expertise as a number boost. It now grants advantage. Any feature which grants "double proficiency bonus" now grants advantage instead.
Rogues (at 11th) and Bards (at 16th) get two more skill selections for expertise.
Bards begin with 4 skills instead of 3 for their class.
As stated earlier, Rogues have seven options for Cunning Action instead of four.

I am working on how to use Cunning Action or some new feature to give rogues alternative abilities for other exploration and social aspects.

 

[coolAlias]

What this tells me is instead:

From a new player's perspective Rogues are weirdly un-5E-like in that they really reward system mastery in a way more associated with, say, 3E.

Just grokking the difference between "turn" and "round" is a big ask.

So imagine how much friendlier the game becomes with a 2nd SA feat!


In other words, arguing such a feat shortchanges the system mastery you otherwise need to set up that 2nd SA might have worked in d20.

In the context of 5th edition, all it does is reinforce my point! [emoji846]

That's certainly a valid perspective, and I totally agree the turn vs round distinction is unintuitive.

But Sneak Attack itself is already a somewhat unintuitive ability. I have a player that I've explained it to multiple times and still they struggle with understanding when their attack qualifies for the extra damage. This is in contrast to most 5e abilities that either just work every time or use the standard d20 resolution mechanic.

The opposing valid perspective is that the 5e rogue is fine without ever getting a 2nd SA, and most of them never do, in my experience. A feat is a significant investment, let alone the multiple feats that would be needed to maximize off-turn SA potential.

If rogues at your table aren't keeping up in combat and the players are unhappy, go for it and see how it plays out.