D&D 5E [5E] A Rogue "unnerf" - Extra Attack

[DND_Reborn]

The actual solution is making better feats that benefits rogues.

Rapid strike
-5 to hit extra attack.

The problem with feats is there are open to all classes. That's why I wanted something just for rogues.

 

[coolAlias]

First off, let me reclarify we're talking feat-enabled games here. Good.

Now then. I am of the firm belief Rogues should be DPS machines. Skill use is vastly overrated by a dev team that perpetuates the fantasy that the three pillars are in any way equal. Just look at any published module to instantly see that the game is maybe 80% combat and 15% exploration. The times you make a social check that actually matters can be counted on one hand, for all books together! So putting even 5% on social is generous.

Now, your question:

Because you have vastly better staying power? You don't need to set up special attacks. You have the best weapons, the best armor, and the best combat feats. You also have more hit points.

Also of note: it's a group game. I know there are abilities that rely on Rogues sneaking about, but we've found that in practical play, they're close to worthless.

Nobody wants to sit on their hands while the Rogue solo-scouts the dungeon. (Plus, never split the party)

So the game is about a group of people that make noise and light.

The Rogue should work just like all the other classes: in the context of a group activity.

Giving them what they already have (a second SA) is the best suggestion to answer the OPs query.

It makes them a valuable ally. Much like a Wizard, someone worth protecting.

Without a second SA, the question I'm asking myself is:

Why would anyone ever play a rogue when you can play a fighter?

Thanks to backgrounds and flexible skill acquisition, one of the party fighters can become the swashbuckler. The secret is that skill DCs are very weak in this game. You don't need Expertise to stealth or find traps.

And you're much better at doing the 80% activity: killing monsters.

As for the subclass abilities you get at high level, they might need tweaking. At this stage however my main concern is this:

Rogues need a reason for being in the party. In games with feats, that reason is two SAs already at low level.

That's the message I'm sending out.

In my experience, rogues are one of the most popular classes and deal a pretty significant amount of damage in combat. They are also a lot tankier than they used to be, with d8 HD, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion.

Fighters are better at fighting and deal more consistent damage due to having Extra Attack, but the rogue specializes in dealing a high amount of damage all at once.

Ftr 5 no feats = 2 x (1d8 to 1d12 + 3) = 12 to 16
Rog 5 no feats = 1 x (1d6 + 3 + 3d6) = 17 (only 7 if they don't get their SA)

When you introduce GWM is when the Fighter spikes drastically, but accounting for to-hit chance mitigates it somewhat.

Anyway, while I don't personally see the need to buff rogue's damage output, I agree that making it a feat is probably the best choice. I'd try it at your table and see how it goes.

 

[CapnZapp]

The actual solution is making better feats that benefits rogues.

Agreed.

My solution: a feat that gives Rogues what the rules already give them, less the uncharacteristically byzantine hoops 5E makes players jump through.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Esker]

Agreed.

My solution: a feat that gives Rogues what the rules already give them, less the uncharacteristically byzantine hoops 5E makes players jump through.

You keep saying that the rules already give rogues a second sneak attack if they jump through some hoops, but I don't see how this works.

There's Haste, which if you have a wizard or sorcerer in the party willing to devote their concentration to casting it on you is great, but that comes at huge opportunity cost for them.

If you're an arcane trickster you can cast it on yourself starting at level 13, but only two combats a day, and you only get your reaction attack from the second round on, since you used your first action to cast the spell, leaving you with just the extra Haste action for that first turn. And then you're giving up uncanny dodge, making it that much more likely that your concentration gets broken.

Based on the typical 6 combat day, figuring about 3 rounds per combat, Haste is buying you 4 extra sneak attacks a day, or 22% of your rounds, from level 13-15, going up to 6, or 33% of your rounds at levels 16-18, and 8 at levels 19-20.

Otherwise you have to hope somebody procs an attack of opportunity, or take Sentinel and hope the enemies don't just focus fire on you. But how often do AoOs occur? About 1/3 of the time maybe?

Then there's commander's strike if you happen to have a Battlemaster in the party, which could plausibly be used pretty much every round. But that requires them to give up their bonus action, and one of their own attacks, and your reaction. So it's both costly and not a full second sneak attack.

Are there other options I'm forgetting?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Haste won't give another SA. It grants another attack on your turn, so you have another chance of landing the SA if your first attack misses, but you won't actually get two SA's.

I think CapnZapp was more thinking of feats that allow use of reactions to make opportunity attacks and SA on other people's turns.

 

[coolAlias]

Taking a 3-level dip into Fighter (Battlemaster) or the Martial Maneuver feat to get Riposte is probably the most reliable way I know of to get off-turn Sneak Attack reactions, best if you're a Swashbuckler as you then basically always qualify for SA.

I've never seen it in play, but I've thought about it as something to try if I ever get a chance to play a rogue.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Taking a 3-level dip into Fighter (Battlemaster) or the Martial Maneuver feat to get Riposte is probably the most reliable way I know of to get off-turn Sneak Attack reactions, best if you're a Swashbuckler as you then basically always qualify for SA.

I've never seen it in play, but I've thought about it as something to try if I ever get a chance to play a rogue.

I am not very familiar with Swashbuckler, how does it help?

EDIT: Never mind. I see you were simply referring to Rakish Audacity and granting SA on attacks in general.

 

[Esker]

Haste won't give another SA. It grants another attack on your turn, so you have another chance of landing the SA if your first attack misses, but you won't actually get two SA's.

I think CapnZapp was more thinking of feats that allow use of reactions to make opportunity attacks and SA on other people's turns.

You can use it to get a second SA if you use your regular action to ready an attack, and your Haste action to attack. But like I said, since it uses your reaction it takes away Uncanny Dodge. (Plus you have to end your turn in position to attack)

 

[TwoSix]

So, after we do this, do we also "un-nerf" the Fighter by giving him expertise and otherwise allowing him to be the best skill monkey outside of combat?

Hot take: The thief hurt D&D by siloing combat and non-combat specialization into different classes. A unified "warrior" class merging combat and practical skills would have been better.