D&D 5E 5E and delaying your turn.

[iserith]

Re: Help action familiars, I have them roll initiative if the player intends to use them in combat. My longstanding policy is that I won't harm your familiar - usually. But the second you have it do the Help action, it's got a target on its back and I will blast that thing given half a chance so I can put pressure on your time resources.

 

[Umbran]

And if so, why did 5E get rid of delaying your turn in the initiative order?

Too many things last, "Until the beginning of your next turn." If you actually delay your initiative, you extend how long such effects last.

 

[codo]

I for one am glad they got rid of the delay action. I feel like the delay action is one of those rules that is either never used by a group, except in rare circumstances and doesn't really cause problems, or used all of the time and becomes very metagamey and really slows down the game.

In both third and forth editions the most optimal way of playing in a lot of situations is having an entire party delay their turns so they can all act at the same time. Having one side able to make all of their attacks without their enemy getting a change to heal or reposition between attacks is a big advantage. Having a whole party delay their turns does let all of your enemies attack in a row, but the delay action also lets you jump in at any point in the initiative and heal or move if you need to respond to an attack, and if you don't need to respond to your enemies you get to gang up on them.

The DM is then faced with a choice. He can either ignore the party delay chaining, and give them a big advantage. He can also have the monsters delay their turns to act together, which leads to focus fire, which can easily kill characters. Which can lead to players feeling picked on and hurt feelings. Or the DM can get into a delay war with the players. "I delay until after your turn." "Well, I delay until after your turn." "Well, I ready an action to attack after you start to attack." etc. This is just the worst kind of metagame nit picky play that isn't really fun for anyone.

While on the surface the delay action makes narrative sense and doesn't seem like it would cause many problems, D&D is a turn based game trying to model real life simultaneous combat. In the end the delay action just requires to much complexity and overhead to really be worth it.

 

[TheDelphian]

first I am ok with the idea of delaying but there are reasons they axed it.

While true some people want to give their players choices but in my mind combat doe snot always give you options some chaos must reign and your initiative is one since it is based on a dice roll.

Analysis paralysis is worse for some than others, in some groups the tiny hick-up of delaying and rules needed to implement it would hardly be noticed in others, someone(s) in the group would waste a minute every round deciding what to do when you added delay as a choice. The game is written for a hundred thousand other groups not just for yours. And if you have to make a rule in how long you have to decide you are admitting it is an issue in my mind.

Simple is sometimes better but better is not satisfying every time. it just has to work most the time.

As far as familiars, companions etc. I let the player set the default. Either they roll init on their own, go right before or go right after. once set for that combat it is done. There are times when this is a tactical decision so I let it change each combat but most the time say 90% the player has a preference and it stays the same, this becomes the default or assumed choice, if they don't claim otherwise. As far as milking this to gain advantage or something else. I am like the previous poster that I ignore familiars etc in combat unless they become active in combat. I have run a game were the player and familiar often had to bargain/ debate when the familiar would act in combat, It was an Imp and knew it was fighting out of its weight class so was very careful in combat and scouting.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Horwath]

Too many things last, "Until the beginning of your next turn." If you actually delay your initiative, you extend how long such effects last.

it's simple to solve.

effect ends if you delay.

 

[NotAYakk]

it's simple to solve.

effect ends if you delay.

Great! You are immobilized until the end of your next turn.

You delay your turn 1 initiative count. Hey look, effect gone! FUN!

Now we need 2 kinds of "end of next turn" in the game. And I'm already past my "why bother" threshold.

 

[Oofta]

Great! You are immobilized until the end of your next turn.

You delay your turn 1 initiative count. Hey look, effect gone! FUN!

Now we need 2 kinds of "end of next turn" in the game. And I'm already past my "why bother" threshold.

Beneficial effects go away, penalties stay.

 

[Zaukrie]

Beneficial effects go away, penalties stay.

Elegant.

 

[Shiroiken]

I doubt it's for any mechanical reasons. Other than setting up a combo with another PC, there's really no mechanical advantage, and even choosing to wait basically means you're giving up your initiative. This really isn't any different than groups of enemies going on the same initiative, which is extremely common.

I think it's because of the timing of effects. In 3E effects lasted a set duration (1+ rounds), so changing your initiative didn't matter since the effect was going to end based on when it was implemented. In 4E they started using effects that end at the start/end of creature's turns, which is the same system used in 5E. However, 4E had a slightly complicated rules setup to determine how these effects worked when you delayed. Since 5E is based upon simplicity, I feel this is why it was dropped. If a DM wanted to implement it, I'd simply copy it verbatim (although including it in the DMG like they did with diagonal movement would have been a good idea).

 

[Campbell]

If I were going to introduce Delay into Fifth Edition I would pretty much use Pathfinder 2's version verbatim:

DELAY [FREE-ACTION]
Trigger Your turn begins.

You wait for the right moment to act. The rest of your turn doesn’t happen yet. Instead, you’re removed from the initiative order.

You can return to the initiative order as a free action triggered by the end of any other creature’s turn. This permanently changes your initiative to the new position. You can’t use reactions until you return to the initiative order. If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.

When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action. Any beneficial effects that would end at any point during your turn also end.

The GM might determine that other effects end when you Delay as well. Essentially, you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn.

It basically handle shenanigans. In my own experience games with delay tend to run faster than games without because players are more likely to know what to do when it is their turn. Much better than sitting there thinking through all your options and trying to make something work.