D&D 5E [5E] Collaborative Combat - ADVICE NEEDED

[Trudy]

Ah, so it sounds like you have several fellow players who are hack-n-slash types? And, if my hunch is right, they are coming from a background of video gaming where "kill stealing" is apparently a "thing"? I would investigate further: is it just habit from bloodthirsty video gaming? do they believe that the only way to gain experience points is killing monsters? If they're under that misconception, it would be good to get really clear about how XP/levels are earned in the DM's game.

If I was DMing a combat for a group with that kind of player composition, I would more carefully craft a really deadly combat (and by "deadly" I mean throw out any encounter creation guidelines in the DMG and just make it overwhelming) that strongly encourages outside-the-box thinking. For example, I'd have many many waves of lower-hit point enemies that would just keep coming. There would be a clearly defined objective or two to the combat besides "slay all monsters." In fact, "slay all monsters" would be the WORST strategy and would likely lead to a couple PC deaths at least. The objective instead would be something related to the story, for example, extracting a diplomat with key intelligence from a besieged castle (who is technically an ally but their own motives create complications) OR capturing an enemy alive (see the last episode of Game of Thrones). And then I'd include lots of terrain that can be exploited by clever play – portcullises that can be dropped to stem flow of enemies, secret passages to avoid an ambush or launch a counter ambush, crenellated courtyards which serve as sniping perch for archers, etc. And I'd be very liberal with player actions shoving/pushing enemies off the edge of things.

What this does is gives the slayer-types the opportunity to indulge in wanton dramatic combat, but by keeping the threat constantly increasing strongly encourages better strategizing, and eventually leads to prioritizing the mission over "kill count" or whatever (which IME is what draws out creative outside-the-box thinking). And it also gives actor types (like you, I'm guessing) opportunities to interact with lots of NPCs.

This is wonderful and I love this idea! The DM for Saturday and I are actually close friends, so I'll probably talk about the problem with her more in detail later this week and see if she thinks something like this might help. We do have a problem with characters/players looking at combat as the One Immediate Solution to Any Problem, and she's privately told me that she's wanted to figure out some way to discourage that so people don't brandish the swords and staffs at the first glance of trouble. This might be a solution for both problems.

Wait. I don't know what class your character. I don't know why I think it's a paladin. But regardless, the thrown weapons mostly Simple so even if you're playing a warlock, you'll be proficient.

You're right -- playing a pally in this game. And thanks, I'm going to be looting some weapons next time we get into combat.

 

[Quickleaf]

This is wonderful and I love this idea! The DM for Saturday and I are actually close friends, so I'll probably talk about the problem with her more in detail later this week and see if she thinks something like this might help. We do have a problem with characters/players looking at combat as the One Immediate Solution to Any Problem, and she's privately told me that she's wanted to figure out some way to discourage that so people don't brandish the swords and staffs at the first glance of trouble. This might be a solution for both problems.

Btw, it's great that there are players who are into combat. That's a big part of D&D.

What can happen is that such a single-minded focus can lead to a lowest common denominator situation with combats becoming a grind. When a combat starts, the story & roleplaying & exploration doesn't need to stop. It can take a DM a while to find his or her own way of understanding and expressing that. I'll give a few examples of what I mean:

A fight breaks out with the captain of the guard! ...and during the fighting he locks blades with the fighter PC, whispering that he's actually part of the resistance and the only way they're getting close to the Evil Duke is if they are taken prisoner. What do the PCs do?

A fight breaks out with an orcish patrol! ...and it turns out the disgruntled patrol leader is related to the half-orc PC, and has been considering defecting. However, kill too many of his orcish allies and he'll harden against the PCs. Could there be a way to get him and his war band to defect?

A fight breaks out with an ettin inhabiting Caer Turvold! ...and during the fighting, the ettin sends the rogue PC flying through an old stone wall, crashing through it, and revealing a new section of the dungeon ruins heretofore undiscovered by the PCs, including an old ballista that could be used against the ettin or other foes.

And a few tips for your DM...

Goals Besides ‘Kill All Monsters’
Reach a safe zone against overwhelming odds
Trick monsters into helping / downfall
Shock & awe to get monsters to flee / surrender
Stealth to goal without alerting monsters
Destroy or stop a device / ritual
Coerce an enemy to defect
Protect a NPC / location / object
Kill the monsters’ leader

Reasons to Interact with Villain without Violence
Comm. device (e.g. letters, sending stone)
Social function (e.g. funeral, court)
Proxy (e.g. henchmen, familiar, hostage)
Greater threat (e.g. disaster, nastier villain)
Duty/loved one (e.g. oath, sibling)

 

[Harzel]

Only slightly. The thrown weapon won't likely do quite as much damage - but there's nothing beyond that unless you've buffed up your melee power with feats. Regardless, it's stronger than a double move and that's all we suggested doing this for - getting in an attack as you approach the target instead of just closing the distance.

But the attack roll is Strength+Proficiency and damage is weapon +strength. Your paladin's already set for that.

(Unless you're a finesse fighter, in which case you'll want to throw daggers to use dex instead of str.)

Unless I am missing something, as a paladin you are proficient with simple weapons and martial weapons, so all ranged and thrown weapons are available to you. If your DEX is ok, you could consider bows and crossbows; if not, javelins have the best range AFAIK (30/120).

 

[happyhermit]

I'm going to kind of get a little tl;dr here again for the sake of answering your questions about both RP and DM enemy placement.
...

Well, as to placement, in SKT and most other adventures IIRC there is often a huge amount of leeway on where opponents are actually placed both in general and in particular when combat is actually initiated (I suppose this could differ on roll20). Sometimes GMs barely even consider where they will place NPCs, I have even heard of some GMs who start nearly ever combat with opposing sides at the same distance from each other which can really suck if that distance is outside of a PCs ability to close to melee or something similar. Now, if there are reasons for having things spread out that's fine, but it's worth mentioning it as a factor for the GM to consider IMO. It's better to have a mixture of ranges and to have player actions able to effect them.

For the rest, I have really found very few people to object to a little bit of RP in combat, even in very low RP groups, so I do think it's worth a shot. Something as simple as (in character) "This one's mine" or "I got this" "Over here!" can solve a lot of problems and tends to add to the game IMO much more than metagaming talk, and it keeps the game flowing. It can really help speed up combat and other things if people stay in character as well, when people start metagaming and strategist out of character things tend to go slower.

 

[Trudy]

Thanks so much for the advice/suggestions and thoughtful questions. I've given it some thought overnight, and these are my plans going forward:

1. Get ranged weapons / throwing weapons on my paladin. This should hopefully mitigate my frustrations with having a difficult time maneuvering in combat. Javelins sound super cool. Let's make this happen.
2. Focus on better in-character communication during combat. If there's still difficulty, communicate out-of-character at the end of a game session.

Hopefully one of these two will help, and if not, I'll try talking to the DM about it privately, a day or two after the game.

Our last game session took place outside, and now we're inside of a dungeon, I anticipate there being far fewer problems with regards to everyone being all over the place; close quarters seem to cause less problems in combat. It might take some time for me to know if there's been any improvement, but I appreciate all the thoughtful responses I've gotten in this thread.

 

[iserith]

My advice is likely useless since it counters 2 of your unspoken rules.

Play your character as [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] describes playing his. What do I mean? Just roleplay it to the max.

(Iserith recently described playing an expert archer who is more likely to hit things with a frying pan than attack with his bow. I've tagged him so he can clarify)

I played this character on Saturday night as it happens. [MENTION=6801813]Valmarius[/MENTION] was there to see his antics. Only certain enemies are bow-worthy like the one grimlock leader I took down in one shot because it was threatening the party cleric. Every other enemy got hit with nets, daggers, a shield, a shovel, and my trusty iron pot. (They put these items in the starting equipment for a reason, dammit!) That's when I wasn't just moving to the front and dodging in an effort to draw attacks away from the rest of the party.

As for the original topic, the simplest solution I can see - other than just talking about it as a group and coming to an agreement about how to move forward in the future - is to follow the lead of the other players and build on what they start. As well, make your intentions known. That might mean just telling the other players what you have in mind tactically or having your character say it during the scene.

 

[JPicasso]

Couple of thoughts.

1. There is no such thing as kill-stealing in a cooperative game, unless the GM only gives XP to those who land the killing blow or something. (If so, remember that no gaming is better than bad gaming.) In fact, kill-securing is really the best strategy for all. "saving" enemies is a terrible choice. What if your attacks miss, and the enemy is able to do some damage? That is a worse scenario. Don't sweat it.

2. In the example where the entire party engaged the easy kills, leaving you to deal with the BBEG alone, that is probably not the best strategy for all, I would suggest you take a minute before each combat and have everyone announce their intentions. My guess is everyone in your group thought about what they were going to do, and then just did it, without taking into account what was actually happening. In that case, it might have been better for you to engage the minions with the rest of the group, so that they could all be dispatched and the entire party can focus on Mr. BBEG.

Also, remember that this is an RPG and even with lots of combat, sometimes being in character means making sub-optimal choices. For example, if you were good with swords, and there was a BBEG threatening you and your friends, but his punk helper was right next to you poking you with a stick, your optimal tactic might be to disengage the minion, and use your skills better suited for the BBEG. However, it's probably more likely that an actual person would choose to dispatch the goblin right next to them, simply because he's RIGHT THERE, before dealing with the bigger threat.

I would suggest talking about general strategies in the beginning of combat without actually planning everyone's moves so that you can get the group thinking about a strategy. Suggest things like "Who can help me with the boss? or are we all going to take out the minions first?" Or, "If you ranged guys can annoy the ogre, we'll have a round or two to melee these goblins".

Also, consider holding your action. "I'll wait to see if Helga dispatches the orc captain, if he falls, I'll move to the other side of the combat and help with the troll, otherwise I move to support Helga." Stuff like this can be great if you have higher initiative but are unsure about the choices your companions will make.

 

[Trudy]

Couple of thoughts.

1. There is no such thing as kill-stealing in a cooperative game, unless the GM only gives XP to those who land the killing blow or something. (If so, remember that no gaming is better than bad gaming.) In fact, kill-securing is really the best strategy for all. "saving" enemies is a terrible choice. What if your attacks miss, and the enemy is able to do some damage? That is a worse scenario. Don't sweat it.

I wish I could avoid sweating it -- but I think a lot of my frustrations do stem a little from how long combat takes. If one round of combat takes 30-45 minutes to complete (no exaggeration), it's hard not to feel frustrated when you can't get anything done, because you spent a lot of time waiting just to get to do nothing. Ultimately, this is a problem that only the DM and other players are going to be able to solve; I usually have my actions planned by the time the player before me gets their turn, and it's clear the DM needs to make sure she's familiar backwards and forwards with how her creatures fight / function.

I genuinely feel that my frustrations wouldn't be as prevalent if so much of the game wasn't slow-moving combat.

2. In the example where the entire party engaged the easy kills, leaving you to deal with the BBEG alone, that is probably not the best strategy for all, I would suggest you take a minute before each combat and have everyone announce their intentions. My guess is everyone in your group thought about what they were going to do, and then just did it, without taking into account what was actually happening. In that case, it might have been better for you to engage the minions with the rest of the group, so that they could all be dispatched and the entire party can focus on Mr. BBEG.

Also, remember that this is an RPG and even with lots of combat, sometimes being in character means making sub-optimal choices. For example, if you were good with swords, and there was a BBEG threatening you and your friends, but his punk helper was right next to you poking you with a stick, your optimal tactic might be to disengage the minion, and use your skills better suited for the BBEG. However, it's probably more likely that an actual person would choose to dispatch the goblin right next to them, simply because he's RIGHT THERE, before dealing with the bigger threat.

I would suggest talking about general strategies in the beginning of combat without actually planning everyone's moves so that you can get the group thinking about a strategy. Suggest things like "Who can help me with the boss? or are we all going to take out the minions first?" Or, "If you ranged guys can annoy the ogre, we'll have a round or two to melee these goblins".

Also, consider holding your action. "I'll wait to see if Helga dispatches the orc captain, if he falls, I'll move to the other side of the combat and help with the troll, otherwise I move to support Helga." Stuff like this can be great if you have higher initiative but are unsure about the choices your companions will make.

Thanks -- agreed 100%, and that's exactly what I'm going to try this week; I did make it clear when I was double-moving towards the enemy in combat example 1 that I was moving to attack, but maybe I need to be a little more loud about it. I also suspect that some people *might* be zoning out during combat because it takes so long. We're playing online on Roll20, so it's easy for people to open another tab and get distracted by what's going on there in the middle of a game.

 

[jasper]

You can nicely trying to help the newbie DM out on Saturday by giving good advice if the dm asks for it.
As it looks like your Saturday group are don't care about group tactics, you will have to either suffer during combat, or leave the group. Never try to change how the other players play.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Also take a look at the Charger feat. It allows a bonus action attack after a dash, if you find yourself having to double move a lot. You would get more damage that way (using main weapon) than with a throw.

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