D&D 5E 5e Hardcore: Monster Manual

[CapnZapp]

You keep using that word, but it does not mean what you think it means. Adding more abilities is not advanced because you're not adding any complexity to the rules system.

I maintain that more thoughtful monster design can be labeled "advanced" just fine. If you can only see "more", what does that tell us about you...?

You don't have to like it, but stop pretending I am not using the word correctly.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I maintain that more thoughtful monster design can be labeled "advanced" just fine. If you can only see "more", what does that tell us about you...?

It tells me I know what the word means. You keep assuming that they did not give any thought into this. This is the second time you've said this. That's not true. They did give thought into it, and decided it's not in scope for what they want. It's like what Skip Williams said about 2e, "Of course we thought about ascending AC, but we wanted all the material people already owned to be compatible with the new 2e system." Just because there aren't as many options you want doesn't mean they didn't think about it like you keep saying. Especially when they've directly addressed your problems by saying "here are the tools to mold the game you want to make it."

And of course, that's all ignoring the fact of what the word actually means, and what you've suggested does not fit that description. "Advanced" also implies that only smarter players can or do play it. It was one of the big knocks against TSR labeling, and why when WoTC came out with 3e, they just called it "D&D" straight up. Nothing what you suggested is more advanced (complex) than what already exists in the game. So why are you so stuck on that name? Because it implies people who use it are smarter and you want to feel smarter than other gamers?

You don't have to like it, but stop pretending I am not using the word correctly.

Not pretending. Looking at actual definition...

 

[Morrus]

5e AD&D: Monster Manual

Let's drop the embarrassing argument about the definition of the word "advanced", please. Trust me, everybody loses that argument.

 

[Zardnaar]

So this is actually gonna happen or is it just gonna be arguing about stuff/ I have a CR 30 sand worm I have kind of been working on. Its mostly resistant to everything and immune to magic.

 

[Quickleaf]

Quickleaf, thank you for the comments. This is exactly the type of feedback and dialog I was hoping to get with this thread.

Generally, I'm hesitant when it comes to people converting 4e monsters because, well, I played (and enjoyed) 4e but there were things I really didn't like. However, I really appreciate your mission statement and the design sensibility you seem to have, so happy to help.

I agree that is the general goal. These ogre's in particular are updated from 4e, so that could be some of it.

I rarely convert "straight from edition X" monsters. I think with 4e, in particular, that's a trap. Instead, I do "inspired by multiple past editions, possible with a creative twist" monster conversions. In particular, there's a LOT in AD&D (1e/2e) that's worth going back to.

The stun may be to much, but to me the idea is that the ogre is putting his/her full fury behind this particular attack in a way that it can't do consistently. I could have given it a trait to explain that, but it didn't feel necessary to me. It could also be elaborated on in some fluff text. Well the MM doesn't pass out conditions in quite the same way 4e did. But PCs can still do it. One thing I wanted to do was bring back more conditions.

As a former 4e DM of many years, one of the things I didn't like was using tokens/bottle cap rings to track the umpteen-million conditions going around the table. In bigger fights I felt like I needed a holographic projector (or video game) to keep track of the conditions that were flying around. It was an unnecessary time-sink, pain in the DM arse, and even experienced players would often forget conditions on their PCs. Do I personally want that back in the game? No, thank you.

Also, think about how you're putting recharge (DM has to devote mental space to check whether power recharges) on an ogre, which is often encountered in groups. Some of the monsters with recharge (5-6) powers – behirs, chimera, dragons – fit a more classical solo monster role. However, others – ankhegs, giant spiders, and winter wolves – are usually encountered in groups. I personally consider that an example of shortsighted design; rolling for multiple recharge powers and keeping track of which monster has recharged is a pain in the DM arse. On paper, it looks good. At the table, it plays slow and annoying.

Stunned may be to much for CR 2, I'll think about it.

Anyhow, about stunned. Monsters don't dish it out until CR 6 (vrock) or CR 7 (mind flayer). My hunch was this corresponded to some spell that clerics would get to remove the stunned condition, but turns out neither of the restoration spells do that... So maybe it simply has to do with having enough hit points? Because the CR 2 carrion crawler can dish out paralyzation.

As a design aesthetic, 5e has moved away from taking PCs out of the action for long periods of time (just look at the huge nerf to carrion crawler paralyzation!). Imposing "stunned" more than once-in-a-blue-moon just isn't fun at the table because it rarely rarely leads to interesting decision points. Sometimes you might provoke an interesting choice for other members of the party, but that's far from guaranteed.

As an alternative, taking my points above into account, here's an idea...

[SECTION]Improvised Clobbering (recharge short or long rest). The ogre grabs something big and heavy from the surrounding environment, uprooting it or breaking it off if necessary, and drops it squarely on a target's head. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d8+8) bludgeoning damage, and if the target is Large or smaller it is also knocked prone and must make a DC 14 Dexterity saving throw or be restrained underneath the object. A DC 19 Strength (Athletics) check as an action lifts the object, freeing the target. Damaging the object may free the target as well at the DM's discretion.[/SECTION]

What this does is put the PCs in a "spot" with options for creative solutions. Does the fighter want to devote time to hacking the object apart, or risk trying to lift the heavy object on his/her own? Does the druid have a spell that might destroy the object altogether like blight or stone shape? Does the wizard use telekinesis? Does the trapped PC have the ability to burrow due to a racial feature or a ranger's animal companion, just burrowing out to safety? That's the kind of lateral thinking that makes for a fun decision point.

There is not "outside of combat" for the Warhulk

That right there explains our philosophical difference about monsters in a nutshell.

I'm a little concerned about pigeonholing monsters. How I use them in my fiction is not the same as you use them in your fiction and I don't want to prevent that. That being said, I really appreciate all of your comments. Lots to think about.

Happy to help Good luck with your project!

 

[dave2008]

So this is actually gonna happen or is it just gonna be arguing about stuff/ I have a CR 30 sand worm I have kind of been working on. Its mostly resistant to everything and immune to magic.

It is happening! It will be slow though.

I believe you posted a draft of that sand worm in another thread - I remember liking it quite a bit.

 

[dave2008]

I rarely convert "straight from edition X" monsters. I think with 4e, in particular, that's a trap. Instead, I do "inspired by multiple past editions, possible with a creative twist" monster conversions. In particular, there's a LOT in AD&D (1e/2e) that's worth going back to.

Me too. I actually typical start with 1e AD&D or D&D and then look at 3e and then 4e. If that is not enough I check out 2e. I try to distill all of that into my 5e version. I've been doing that for the demons, but these Ogres were straight 4e-5e conversions. Not typically my style but I think it works to give some of the variety I've been hearing people ask for.

As a former 4e DM of many years, one of the things I didn't like was using tokens/bottle cap rings to track the umpteen-million conditions going around the table. In bigger fights I felt like I needed a holographic projector (or video game) to keep track of the conditions that were flying around. It was an unnecessary time-sink, pain in the DM arse, and even experienced players would often forget conditions on their PCs. Do I personally want that back in the game? No, thank you.

Also, think about how you're putting recharge (DM has to devote mental space to check whether power recharges) on an ogre, which is often encountered in groups. Some of the monsters with recharge (5-6) powers – behirs, chimera, dragons – fit a more classical solo monster role. However, others – ankhegs, giant spiders, and winter wolves – are usually encountered in groups. I personally consider that an example of shortsighted design; rolling for multiple recharge powers and keeping track of which monster has recharged is a pain in the DM arse. On paper, it looks good. At the table, it plays slow and annoying.

Me too, I some point I stopped using conditions and ongoing damage and just made all the attacks do more damage to compensate. I will definitely have rethink the conditions. The recharge powers I was really only intending to use once per combat, so perhaps 1/short rest would be better.

As an alternative, taking my points above into account, here's an idea...

[SECTION]Improvised Clobbering (recharge short or long rest). The ogre grabs something big and heavy from the surrounding environment, uprooting it or breaking it off if necessary, and drops it squarely on a target's head. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d8+8) bludgeoning damage, and if the target is Large or smaller it is also knocked prone and must make a DC 14 Dexterity saving throw or be restrained underneath the object. A DC 19 Strength (Athletics) check as an action lifts the object, freeing the target. Damaging the object may free the target as well at the DM's discretion.[/SECTION]

What this does is put the PCs in a "spot" with options for creative solutions. Does the fighter want to devote time to hacking the object apart, or risk trying to lift the heavy object on his/her own? Does the druid have a spell that might destroy the object altogether like blight or stone shape? Does the wizard use telekinesis? Does the trapped PC have the ability to burrow due to a racial feature or a ranger's animal companion, just burrowing out to safety? That's the kind of lateral thinking that makes for a fun decision point.

This is an interesting attack, but highly situational. Not exactly what I like to see in a stat block. I could see it in a list of improvised actions for ogres section. I would like to do things like that, but that is not in the scope of this project at this time.

That right there explains our philosophical difference about monsters in a nutshell.

Well I was trying to be funny. My philospghy with these creations would be to create mechanics with a hint of an idea and the wave the story around the mechanics, Once the story is developed you go back and modify the mechanics a 3 step process. Everything I do here will likely just be step one as I am going for quantity first. Also, I feel each DM can come up with the story part.

Happy to help Good luck with your project!

Thank you! And thank you for your comments.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is happening! It will be slow though.

I believe you posted a draft of that sand worm in another thread - I remember liking it quite a bit.

Yeah I think I know what I want to do with it.

For non legendary critters good saves, some immunities and resistances or some class abilities that recharge (action surge for example).

A 3.5 Matilith might have 10 levels of whatever, a 5E one just gets +5-+10 CR and stats overhauled.

Generous amounts of proficient saves and "dark blessing" can be used. Dark blessing can be something like advantage on all saves, or charisma bonus to saves a'la Paladin.

A an advanced Marilith "Dark Knight" could have action surge (recharge 5/6), AC 23-25 range, proficient in all saves and a Paladins aura.

For very basic dumb monsters (Sandworms, Adamantine Golems, a Zombie Statue of Liberty)) outright spell immunity or immune to spells of level 1-6+ and resistant to all damage can be used.

For high CR "artillery" monsters let them do things like at will sunbeam spells as a basic attack. I tweaked Mask Wights (Tome of Beasts CR 13) to delete things like magic items from existence instead of non magical, non building possessions.

 

[ScaleyBob]

Great thread so far, (other than the usual squabbling discussions, which at least are fun to read. ). I'll be definitely using some of those Ogres in the near future.

The one Ogre from 4E i found particularly memorable was the Juggernaut - it's knock down, then kick along the ground attack made for very enjoyable combat. My players talked about that for ages. I've been looking at adapting that to 5E.

Here's my small contribution - I've been upgrading Gnolls in my game, as both the MM and Volo's Guide ones are both a bit underpowered and rather boring:

Gnoll
Medium humanoid (gnoll), chaotic evil
Armor Class 15 (hide armor, shield)
Hit Points 27 (5d8+5)
Speed 40 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
14 (+2) 12 (+1) 12 (+0) 6 (−2) 10 (+0) 7 (−2)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages Gnoll
Challenge 1/2 (100 XP)
Rampage. When the gnoll reduces a creature to either below half HP or 0 hit points with a melee attack on its turn, the gnoll can take a bonus action to move up to half its speed and make a bite attack.
Blood Fury: Gnolls get +2 damage while below half HP.
Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage.
Spear. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage, or 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage if used with two hands to make a melee attack.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) piercing damage.

Gnoll Pack Lord
Medium humanoid (gnoll), chaotic evil
Armor Class 15 (chain shirt)
Hit Points 49 (9d8 + 9)
Speed 40 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
16 (+3) 14 (+2) 13 (+1) 8 (−1) 11 (+0) 9 (−1)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages Gnoll
Challenge 2 (450 XP)
Rampage. When the gnoll reduces a creature to either below half HP or 0 hit points with a melee attack on its turn, the gnoll can take a bonus action to move up to half its speed and make a bite attack.
Blood Fury: Gnolls get +2 damage while below half HP.
Actions
Multiattack. The gnoll makes two attacks, either with its glaive or its longbow, and uses its Incite Rampage if it can.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 5 (1d4 + 3) piercing damage.
Glaive. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d10 + 3) slashing damage.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage.
Incite Rampage (Recharge 5–6). One creature the gnoll can see within 30 feet of it can use its reaction to make a melee attack if it can hear the gnoll and has the Rampage trait.

Gnoll Hunter
Medium humanoid (gnoll), chaotic evil
Armor Class 13 (Leather Armor)
Hit Points 22 (4d8+4)
Speed 40 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
14 (+2) 14 (+1) 12 (+0) 8 (−2) 12 (+0) 7 (−2)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Skills Perception +3, Stealth +4 Languages Gnoll Challenge 1/2 (100 XP)
Rampage. When the gnoll reduces a creature to either below half HP or 0 hit points with a melee attack on its turn, the gnoll can take a bonus action to move up to half its speed and make a bite attack.
Blood Fury: Gnolls get +2 damage while below half HP.
Actions
Multiattack. The gnoll makes two attacks, either with its Spear or its longbow.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage.
Spear. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage, or 6 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage if used with two hands to make a melee attack.
Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 2) piercing damage, and the target takes 10ft penalty to their speed.

Gnoll Flesh Gnawer
Medium humanoid (gnoll), chaotic evil
Armor Class 14 (Studded Leather Armor)
Hit Points 27 (5d8+5)
Speed 40 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
14 (+2) 14 (+1) 12 (+0) 8 (−2) 12 (+0) 7 (−2)
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13
Skills Perception +3 Languages Gnoll Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Rampage. When the gnoll reduces a creature to either below half HP or 0 hit points with a melee attack on its turn, the gnoll can take a bonus action to move up to half its speed and make a bite attack.
Blood Fury: Gnolls get +2 damage while below half HP.
Actions
Multiattack. The gnoll makes three attacks, two with its Claws or shortswords and one with its bite.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage.
Short Swords Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage.
Claws Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) Slashing damage.

Hyena
Medium beast, unaligned
Armor Class 11
Hit Points 5 (1d8 + 1)
Speed 50 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
12 (+0) 13 (+1) 12 (+1) 2 (−4) 12 (+1) 5 (−3)
Skills Perception +3
Senses passive Perception 13
Languages —
Challenge 1/8 (25 XP)
Disconcerting Laughter: Allies have advantage on an attack rolls against a creature within 5 feet of the hyena
Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d6+1) piercing damage


I made Rampage trigger when they reduce someone to less than half HP (when they bloody someone , basically), increased their speed to 40ft so they're as fast as they look, and gave them +2 Damage while below half HP, so to represent their savage blood fury nature. All very much like the 4E Gnoll.

I added "Disconcerting Laughter" to Hyenas (allies have advantage against enemies within 5ft of a Hyena) and tend add in a bunch in any Gnoll fight. It increases the accuracy of the Gnolls, and gives the PCs the tactical choice of either attacking the weak Hyenas, or the now more accurate Gnolls.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah I think I know what I want to do with it.

For non legendary critters good saves, some immunities and resistances or some class abilities that recharge (action surge for example).

A 3.5 Matilith might have 10 levels of whatever, a 5E one just gets +5-+10 CR and stats overhauled.

Generous amounts of proficient saves and "dark blessing" can be used. Dark blessing can be something like advantage on all saves, or charisma bonus to saves a'la Paladin.

A an advanced Marilith "Dark Knight" could have action surge (recharge 5/6), AC 23-25 range, proficient in all saves and a Paladins aura.

For very basic dumb monsters (Sandworms, Adamantine Golems, a Zombie Statue of Liberty)) outright spell immunity or immune to spells of level 1-6+ and resistant to all damage can be used.

For high CR "artillery" monsters let them do things like at will sunbeam spells as a basic attack. I tweaked Mask Wights (Tome of Beasts CR 13) to delete things like magic items from existence instead of non magical, non building possessions.

Thank you for the suggestions Zardnaar. I really like the idea of the Marilith aura. I was thinking they need some buffs ( I did add one, but the aura might be better)