D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Maxperson]

I disagree that it is not an interpretation. The quotes you provided could support your position, I agree. But they don't automatically. Because the first one was "Unique".

No. Things do not work in isolation like that. Nor is anything I posted after that in contradiction to it. Each rock outcropping is unique. You aren't going to find another one with exactly the same formations. All 100,000 rock formations are unique. Just like you are unique, even though there are billions of women in the world.

If every single rock formation had a spirit there would be no quarries because those Powerful Beings would kill every level 0 commoner worker trying to tear up stone to build something for a Sorcerer King. If every single oasis had a Powerful Spirit protecting it there'd never be a group of Bandits holding an Oasis for themselves and killing anyone who approaches and selling off water at ridiculous prices because the Spirit would kill them for abusing it.

Actually, there's only a 10% chance of a spirit coming out even when it will die if it doesn't. Nor will it die if even 99% of the formation is destroyed, something that is unlikely. So long as even a little bit remains, the spirit doesn't care. Those things are also in the rules for spirits.

So yeah. I disagree, but I understand how you came to your conclusion and agree your interpretation may be correct.

Once again,

"A Spirit of the Land is a powerful being that inhabits the various geological features (mountains, hills, rock formations, hotsprings, river beds, winds, skies, etc.) of Athas."

"A spirit of the earth is perhaps the strongest of the spirits, since the earth is always present. On an individual basis, a spirit of a rocky outcropping in a sandy waste may be threatened if someone begins to break up the rock."

All of which are unique.

In Athas, virtually everything in nature has a spirit.

 

[Mark Hope]

Spelljammer had come out 3 years prior to Dark Sun, and the Dark Sun writers specifically included the Hollow to cut it off from other worlds so no one could fly in from Faerun, pick up a bunch of people, drop them off in Faerun, and play stronger Psionic characters in FR with better stat rolls since they were from Athas.

You are right that it isn't ENTIRELY cut off. After all, the Gith tried to plow through the Hollow while Spelljamming and got trapped on the Athasian side. But it is meant to be a one-way trip and incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to get out.

Minor nitpick - it's the Grey that impedes travel, not the Hollow. The Hollow is a weird non-space (sometimes described as being inside the Black) and it's only feature is Rajaat, who is imprisoned there. He fills it completely because it doesn't really have any dimensions. The standard way of looking at things in 2e was to see DS cosmology as an egg. Athas is the shell. The Black is the white of the egg and the Hollow is the yolk. The Grey surrounds the egg, cutting it off from all the other planes (mostly - the Dark Sun elemental planes are weird)

 

[Sithlord]

Gray=shadow and Black=fey matches elegantly.

Feywild. Shadowfel. Not for me lol. 1E/2E all
The way baby. Lol

 

[Steampunkette]

No. Things do not work in isolation like that. Nor is anything I posted after that in contradiction to it. Each rock outcropping is unique. You aren't going to find another one with exactly the same formations. All 100,000 rock formations are unique. Just like you are unique, even though there are billions of women in the world.

Actually, there's only a 10% chance of a spirit coming out even when it will die if it doesn't. Nor will it die if even 99% of the formation is destroyed, something that is unlikely. So long as even a little bit remains, the spirit doesn't care. Those things are also in the rules for spirits.

Once again,

"A Spirit of the Land is a powerful being that inhabits the various geological features (mountains, hills, rock formations, hotsprings, river beds, winds, skies, etc.) of Athas."

"A spirit of the earth is perhaps the strongest of the spirits, since the earth is always present. On an individual basis, a spirit of a rocky outcropping in a sandy waste may be threatened if someone begins to break up the rock."

All of which are unique.

In Athas, virtually everything in nature has a spirit.

So 10% of Quarries result in a Spirit rising up and wiping out everyone who tries to bore into their outcropping.

Much more reasonable interpretation.

And druids just keep walking past allllll the different spirits, refusing to defend them, until they find the one they like.

Doesn't make a ton of sense. Especially to have all of them be 20 hit dice monsters worth 25k xp.

And no. Things don't work in isolation. They define each other as a whole. I do not interpret "A" or "The" to mean "All" or "Every". I also don't believe the designers intended for every single one to be occupied by a spirit. Why? 'Cause when people talk about unique geological formations they're generally talking about things like the Eye of the Sahara, or Valley of the Moon, or the Painted Desert in Arizona, or Stone Mountain in Georgia, or the Grand Canyon.

Not every hill you walk on. Not every random outcropping of stone. Just the big ones important enough to name. But that's likely as not a linguistic difference in how we interpret that phrase and the ones that spring out of it.

You do feel it's referring to every single hill. I get that. I disagree, but I see how and why you came to that conclusion.

 

[Steampunkette]

Minor nitpick - it's the Grey that impedes travel, not the Hollow. The Hollow is a weird non-space (sometimes described as being inside the Black) and it's only feature is Rajaat, who is imprisoned there. He fills it completely because it doesn't really have any dimensions. The standard way of looking at things in 2e was to see DS cosmology as an egg. Athas is the shell. The Black is the white of the egg and the Hollow is the yolk. The Grey surrounds the egg, cutting it off from all the other planes (mostly - the Dark Sun elemental planes are weird)

Well pointed out, thank you!

Feywild. Shadowfel. Not for me lol. 1E/2E all
The way baby. Lol

Even if someone -wanted- to use modern terms for those two...

Grey = Ethereal
Black = Shadowfell

No Feywild in sight.

 

[Maxperson]

So 10% of Quarries result in a Spirit rising up and wiping out everyone who tries to bore into their outcropping.

No. 10% of quarries where the entire outcropping is destroyed will do that. Then any survivors will be publicly and gruesomely killed over a long period of time by the local sorcerer king who almost certainly has laws against pissing off powerful creatures(and its druids) that would require him or someone highly placed to deal with. They would be limited by law(or hell, just self-preservation) to probably no more than half of a feature, so as not to potentially bring out the spirit.

And druids just keep walking past allllll the different spirits, refusing to defend them, until they find the one they like.

Doesn't make a ton of sense. Especially to have all of them be 20 hit dice monsters worth 25k xp.

I didn't write the rules. But that is what the rules do in fact say.

And no. Things don't work in isolation. They define each other as a whole. I do not interpret "A" or "The" to mean "All" or "Every". I also don't believe the designers intended for every single one to be occupied by a spirit. Why? 'Cause when people talk about unique geological formations they're generally talking about things like the Eye of the Sahara, or Valley of the Moon, or the Painted Desert in Arizona, or Stone Mountain in Georgia, or the Grand Canyon.

They explicitly said that every individual feature has a spirit, though. I showed that very clearly with my quotes. Their words, not mine.

Not every hill you walk on. Not every random outcropping of stone. Just the big ones important enough to name. But that's likely as not a linguistic difference in how we interpret that phrase and the ones that spring out of it.

That's what you want it to be, not what they said it is, though. They said EVERY individual outcropping and other feature has a spirit.

You do feel it's referring to every single hill. I get that. I disagree, but I see how and why you came to that conclusion.

I don't feel any such thing. It's what it says in clear English.

 

[Yaarel]

So I went and dug out the monstrous compendium and looked up spirit of the land.

"A Spirit of the Land is a powerful being that inhabits the various geological features (mountains, hills, rock formations, hotsprings, river beds, winds, skies, etc.) of Athas."

"A spirit of the earth is perhaps the strongest of the spirits, since the earth is always present. On an individual basis, a spirit of a rocky outcropping in a sandy waste may be threatened if someone begins to break up the rock."

Note how it separates those features, including rock formations, and gives them a spirit of the land. My interpretation would seem to be the correct one. It even specifies rocky outcropping explicitly having an individual spirit.

It also implies through it's language that the spirits are there, but prefer to work with druids and almost never talk to anyone other than a druid or cleric.

Yeah.

In the animistic perspective, a "community" includes all of the human members, and also includes all of the nonhuman members as well.

The role of a shaman is to help resolve any difficulties within the community. If a conflict breaks out between two human members of the community, one or both might ask the shaman for help, or the shaman can intervene to help resolve the conflict. Identically, if a conflict breaks out between a nonhuman member and a human member, or a conflict between two nonhuman members, one or both members of the community can ask the shaman for help. A nonhuman member of the community might show up in a dream to ask for help, or the shaman can discover that a nonhuman member is involved while investigating a difficulty.

The animism is egalitarian − there are no masters and there are no servants. Both the features of nature and the humans have a say in what goes one within the local shared community. The shaman has the skills and the training to help resolve any community difficulties. The shaman can function as an advocate for any of the community members. Effectively, the shaman functions as an advocate who helps explain the needs of the nonhuman members. But other humans will also be interacting in a mutual relationship with the features of natures, via annual ceremonies, family traditions and personal experiences, such as dreams and sightings.

The relationships between the humans and the features of nature are ongoing and vivid. It is typical for certain families to believe one of these features is an ancestor, and their family partly descends from nonhuman heritage.

Every stone, every tree, has a mind, and a say about what is going on within the community. However, they are not equally significant. As a rule, the more prominent a natural feature is to the community, the greater the mental influence it has among the community, and the more present and vivid its mind is. A mountain literally looms large, and is an important part of the communities ways of life. Likewise a watersource. In the case of a mountain, the mountain itself can be understood as a great ancestor, and the other notable features being members of the family of the mountain. The less significant features such as pebbles here and there, can also be part of this family, but tend to be "quieter", less prominent, and tend to go along with whatever the ancestral mountains decides.

As time passes, new features can gain in significance within the community and old features can decline in significance − comparable to humans being born and dying within the community. But everyone remains part of the community, even if the memory about them can become misty.

 

[Rikka66]

The possibility of coordinationg both the Background and free Feat at level 1, opens up new design space to express well a character concept at level 1.

For Dark Sun, the free feat will likely be a Psionic Talent. And there will likely be psionic Backgrounds that synergize. At the same time, there can also be other free feats to choose from at level 1, such as Defiling wizardry. There might be traits for one of the cultures or subcultures in Dark Sun, in the form of a feat.

I think they will have a list of Wild Talents you can pick from (with a table to roll on to give one randomly) with a feat that also gives one + other bonus, but they won't call it a feat given at first level so as to play a little (and I do mean little) bit nicer with tables that give out free feats at first level. And it matches up a nicer with supernatural gifts.

I will say I really like the aesthetics of the dark sun campaign. I still fit it within the planescape cosmology. It’s just the natives interpretation of the planes they have some contact with. Athasians are the perfect definition of clueless. I have sent planewalkers there and had them have difficulty finding a portal away from there. Also had them having difficulty fighting natives with high ability scores. Very great setting for man versus nature.

Planar travelers finding a way to Athas and very quickly becoming desperate to escape is something of a D&D trope. A fun one, though.

I don't think they need to be married to the Gray/Black/Hallow exactly as it was. The key details to me are:
1. Planar travel to other settings doesn't happen
2. Any planes you can reach are worse places to be than Athas, which is an achievement in itself.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah.

In the animistic perspective, a "community" includes all of the human members, and also includes all of the nonhuman members as well.

The role of a shaman is to help resolve any difficulties within the community. If a conflict breaks out between two human members of the community, one or both might ask the shaman for help, or the shaman can intervene to help resolve the conflict. Identically, if a conflict breaks out between a nonhuman member and a human member, or a conflict between two nonhuman members, one or both members of the community can ask the shaman for help. A nonhuman member of the community might show up in a dream to ask for help, or the shaman can discover that a nonhuman member is involved while investigating a difficulty.

The animism is egalitarian − there are no masters and there are no servants. Both the features of nature and the humans have a say in what goes one within the local shared community. The shaman has the skills and the training to help resolve any community difficulties. The shaman can function as an advocate for any of the community members. Effectively, the shaman functions as an advocate who helps explain the needs of the nonhuman members. But other humans will also be interacting in a mutual relationship with the features of natures, via annual ceremonies, family traditions and personal experiences, such as dreams and sightings.

The relationships between the humans and the features of nature are ongoing and vivid. It is typical for certain families to believe one of these features is an ancestor, and their family partly descends from nonhuman heritage.

Every stone, every tree, has a mind, and a say about what is going on within the community. However, they are not equally significant. As a rule, the more prominent a natural feature is to the community, the greater the mental influence it has among the community, and the more present and vivid its mind is. A mountain literally looms large, and is an important part of the communities ways of life. Likewise a watersource. In the case of a mountain, the mountain itself can be understood as a great ancestor, and the other notable features being members of the family of the mountain. The less significant features such as pebbles here and there, can also be part of this family, but tend to be "quieter", less prominent, and tend to go along with whatever the ancestral mountains decides.

As time passes, new features can gain in significance within the community and old features can decline in significance − comparable to humans being born and dying within the community. But everyone remains part of the community, even if the memory about them can become misty.

Athas doesn't get down to the "every tree" and "every stone" level, but there are a very great number of spirits all around. A single hill could have several dozen or hundreds. Each outcropping will have one, the hill will have one, any groves of trees would have one, if there is a spring on the hill it would have one, the air in the area will have one, and so on.

 

[Steampunkette]

No. 10% of quarries where the entire outcropping is destroyed will do that. Then any survivors will be publicly and gruesomely killed over a long period of time by the local sorcerer king who almost certainly has laws against pissing off powerful creatures(and its druids) that would require him or someone highly placed to deal with. They would be limited by law(or hell, just self-preservation) to probably no more than half of a feature, so as not to potentially bring out the spirit.

I didn't write the rules. But that is what the rules do in fact say.

They explicitly said that every individual feature has a spirit, though. I showed that very clearly with my quotes. Their words, not mine.

That's what you want it to be, not what they said it is, though. They said EVERY individual outcropping and other feature has a spirit.

I don't feel any such thing. It's what it says in clear English.

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo"

This is a complete and clear sentence in English.

Each word in the sentence either refers to an action, a location, or an animal. And if you understand the writers intent, you can sort out which meaning the sentence has.

When they say "Feature" are they using it as your interpretation dictates, meaning any naturally occurring geologic structure, or are they saying feature in the sense of specific outstanding unique cool places?

You interpret it as the former. I interpret it as the latter. Because Unique. Unique means special, or unlike others, or something that stands out. BUT! You interpret Unique to mean Separate From. As in two outcroppings within a short distance are Unique if they're not connected. Which is -also- a valid definition of the word Unique.

There is no way for us to go any further than that in this discussion without talking to the designers and asking their intentions. Mainly because language is a messy thing in the best of times and English is worse after 30 years of context and such.