Yeah pretty much. But it seems some GMs assume characters are frozen and immobile and silent except on their turns.
[5E] Interrupting a Spellcaster via Ready Action
- Thread starter Nickolaidas
- Start date
How many times in movies have we seen that kind of thing end in the poised to kill getting shot or stabbed or otherwise hit and killed before he completes the kill? Quite a few, it's common.
I get your intent, but the answer to that is to rule change yo havd readies eork like AO, before the trigger completes across the board.
But if this is specifically aimed at magical casting, that's z different animal.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Let's look at this in a slightly different way. Here's the scenario:
A bowman is standing over a trap door in the floor and you have your hand on the lever that triggers it. He is holding his bow, but his arrows are still in his quiver. He has valuable information, so you don't want to just trigger the trap and possibly kill him. You have won initiative and are acting first:
You: I tell him not to attack or I will pull the lever.
DM: Ok, so you are Readying your action to Use an Object, the lever, if he attacks.
You: Yep. I know I could interact with it for free now, but I don't want to do it unless I have to.
DM: Sure, he shoots you then.
You: What!? Wait, don't I get to pull the lever first?
DM: You would think so, huh? But since the triggering action was his attack, and your readied action doesn't take place until after the triggering action, he still gets his attack against you.
You: That can't be how it works!?
DM: Sure it is. Page 191 of the PHB. I'll read it to you: "When the trigger event occurs [his attack], you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger." So, you can pull the lever after I resolve his attack on you, but not before it. Sorry.
You: Then what was the point of my standing there holding the lever???
DM: Nothing, I guess you should have just pulled it on your turn and hope he survived. *grins*
That is my interpretation of how the official system works currently. I think that is pretty much how it reads, right? Am I wrong about this? If so, PLEASE tell me how.
A bowman is standing over a trap door in the floor and you have your hand on the lever that triggers it. He is holding his bow, but his arrows are still in his quiver. He has valuable information, so you don't want to just trigger the trap and possibly kill him. You have won initiative and are acting first:
You: I tell him not to attack or I will pull the lever.
DM: Ok, so you are Readying your action to Use an Object, the lever, if he attacks.
You: Yep. I know I could interact with it for free now, but I don't want to do it unless I have to.
DM: Sure, he shoots you then.
You: What!? Wait, don't I get to pull the lever first?
DM: You would think so, huh? But since the triggering action was his attack, and your readied action doesn't take place until after the triggering action, he still gets his attack against you.
You: That can't be how it works!?
DM: Sure it is. Page 191 of the PHB. I'll read it to you: "When the trigger event occurs [his attack], you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger." So, you can pull the lever after I resolve his attack on you, but not before it. Sorry.
You: Then what was the point of my standing there holding the lever???
DM: Nothing, I guess you should have just pulled it on your turn and hope he survived. *grins*
That is my interpretation of how the official system works currently. I think that is pretty much how it reads, right? Am I wrong about this? If so, PLEASE tell me how.
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Now we are in specific realm of " in my games I want magic to be harder" territory. The rules as is fo not establish spellcasting is longer than physicals or that semantics take longer. Heck, iirc some of the more common reaction spells are somantic (counterspell) and some others have materials (feather fall) so this contrivance of the link between type of component and a time to cast is not represented in the actual rules at all, just like a greataxe is not slower than a dagger strike.
Long as this house rule is known at chargen, great. You do you.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
I haven't been around for a while...but anyhoo...
I'll stop you right there. Stating "...and ends its movement..." is, imnsho, giving away too much information to the PC's and players. I would have worded it "The monster dashes towards the PC Wizard as it swings it's weapon" (assuming it was planing on attacking). This describes the action of what's going on rather than state a bland, predictable, cookie-cutter "game move". Unless you're going for a very miniatures/video-game feel...then it's perfect!
Anyway...to continue...
Easy. I play it more like BECMI/1e where if you are casting a spell, you start at the "beginning of the round" and you are, effectively, casting it "all the way through until your initiative point". None of this "Made-For-TV-Witchery-Magic" where the caster simply points a finger or waves a hand and "poof goes the spell". One of my pet peeves for virtually ALL TV "magic characters", like you see in a lot of Supernaturals, or, the worst offender, Charmed, or in other such TV shows. I guess for TV they don't want to freak out all the religious folks with a character gesticulating and chanting and whatnot. I find that "poof!" type spellcasting to be...er...not my cup o' joe, lets say.
Long story short...
DM: Magic energies surround you and...[rolls Grimlocks attack, checks to see if it hits by more than 5; rolls/describes appropriately]. The Mind Flayer Arcanist starts to cast it's spell. Fighter, roll to hit with Advantage.
Moral Of The Story: The Grimlock should have protected the caster...now the Grimlock and the Mind Flayer are going to die for their lack of judgement.
Key things: Casting a spell takes "the beginning of the round up to and including your initiative number". Others can attack a caster in the process of casting, with Advantage. A caster hit must make a Concentration check, as per normal.
No, it's not "RAW", but it's how we do it and it's what works for us. Besides...after almost 4 decades of doing it this way, I found it all but hopeless to try and "rejigger" my brain that way when playing D&D.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
I haven't been around for a while...but anyhoo...
I'll stop you right there. Stating "...and ends its movement..." is, imnsho, giving away too much information to the PC's and players. I would have worded it "The monster dashes towards the PC Wizard as it swings it's weapon" (assuming it was planing on attacking). This describes the action of what's going on rather than state a bland, predictable, cookie-cutter "game move". Unless you're going for a very miniatures/video-game feel...then it's perfect!
Anyway...to continue...
Easy. I play it more like BECMI/1e where if you are casting a spell, you start at the "beginning of the round" and you are, effectively, casting it "all the way through until your initiative point". None of this "Made-For-TV-Witchery-Magic" where the caster simply points a finger or waves a hand and "poof goes the spell". One of my pet peeves for virtually ALL TV "magic characters", like you see in a lot of Supernaturals, or, the worst offender, Charmed, or in other such TV shows. I guess for TV they don't want to freak out all the religious folks with a character gesticulating and chanting and whatnot. I find that "poof!" type spellcasting to be...er...not my cup o' joe, lets say.
Long story short...
DM: Magic energies surround you and...[rolls Grimlocks attack, checks to see if it hits by more than 5; rolls/describes appropriately]. The Mind Flayer Arcanist starts to cast it's spell. Fighter, roll to hit with Advantage.
Moral Of The Story: The Grimlock should have protected the caster...now the Grimlock and the Mind Flayer are going to die for their lack of judgement.
Key things: Casting a spell takes "the beginning of the round up to and including your initiative number". Others can attack a caster in the process of casting, with Advantage. A caster hit must make a Concentration check, as per normal.
No, it's not "RAW", but it's how we do it and it's what works for us. Besides...after almost 4 decades of doing it this way, I found it all but hopeless to try and "rejigger" my brain that way when playing D&D.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
"Right. Why should the caster always win? He shouldn't IMO. "Since the rules are vague about this, why can't we assume that we have time to interrupt a casting? There is no official ruling on this and it can be ruled either way by the DM. 1 action is ambiguous intentionally, so it is up to each table to rule on whether it can be interrupted or not. Point of issue: how else would Counterspell work? It is a reaction, but has the ability to interrupt a creature casting a spell before the spell is finished.
Right. Why should the caster always win? He shouldn't IMO.
However, one way or the other, we can make assumptions about how long something takes and we won't be right, regardless. How long is a Verbal component, even for a Power Word spell? The word could be Iwannallatheesfosatodi!, or it could be bork! We simply do not know since nothing is specified in 5E. A 1 action event might be quick, another 1 action event might be long. It can't matter in 5E because such things aren't (yet) defined.
Does it take longer to complete the spell once the caster starts casting it or does it take longer to throw the spear? Who knows. It seems pretty clear most people (or at least us vocal ones
Once I read in the SA about how a readied action and take place between a multiattack action, I am pretty convinced myself that allowing a readied action to stop a casting before it is complete is feasible. Since others don't feel that way I am not about to try to change their minds--that isn't my job.
For the people who do agree the spear can be thrown before the spell is finished, just decide what effect you want that to have. Will the damage from a hit alone be enough to interrupt the spell? Do you want to have a Concentration check or some other save or something to see if the caster can complete it despite the hit? Whatever works for your table is cool, but no matter what you do it isn't official for anyone else.
Personally, we have been using rolled Initiative each round, like older systems. So, for us, if a caster takes damage or fails a save prior to them casting their spell, they need to make a Concentration check to finish. If the caster goes first, nothing can stop them from completing the spell. Thus, we avoid the entire issue of a readied action. It adds more tension to the game as well. In our last session one of the players acted before the archmage and damaged him, the DM rolled and he failed the Concentration check (lucky for us!), so the spell was stopped. We all groaned when we heard "The archmage is going" before any of us... we knew we could be in trouble.
Finally, if there is anyone who feels their understanding is the "official" one, tell me what your job is at WotC, and maybe I'll believe you.
It's not caster always win, its action resolves first.
Unless this is specifically an attempt to weaken magic - in which case ready is just the red herring - you wind up with a rule of "does ready go first?" The base rule is reactions go after trigger. There are some specific exemptions mentioned. They had to specifically state that counterspell prevented the dpell, that AO happens before they leave the square, etc because the only other rule is the reactions go after.
You are right, that is how the official system works. I am glad we agree on that. Some seem to think the system rule is that it goes the other way.
Note however, if he was moving onto the trap door and that was your trigger, you could drop him then.
Again, countless examples in fiction and film where this stand-off results in shot lever guy.
A GM can change this with a house rule - have at it - but if the house rule is ready always wins, then, you have just swapped the win/lose. Maybe you house rule a dex-off. Maybe you house rule that blue fipurry darts go first and then the blight spell and then who knows what.
Finally, if there is anyone who feels their understanding is the "official" one, tell me what your job is at WotC, and maybe I'll believe you.
Announcing that what is or isn't in the text of the rules (RAW) is not a valid reference point for discussing the rules, or that people's explanations of the rules as written are not worth considering if they don't work for WotC, is maybe not the most inviting approach to a forum discussion about rules.
Also, I was shocked that the folks didn't immediately ask how the wizard was casting Shield when they weren't hit by an attack or magic missile!
it was clarified that it was supposed to be shield of faith in a subsequent post and someone did bring it up.
Nickolaidas
Explorer
Hiya!
I haven't been around for a while...but anyhoo...
I'll stop you right there. Stating "...and ends its movement..." is, imnsho, giving away too much information to the PC's and players. I would have worded it "The monster dashes towards the PC Wizard as it swings it's weapon" (assuming it was planing on attacking). This describes the action of what's going on rather than state a bland, predictable, cookie-cutter "game move". Unless you're going for a very miniatures/video-game feel...then it's perfect!
Anyway...to continue...
Easy. I play it more like BECMI/1e where if you are casting a spell, you start at the "beginning of the round" and you are, effectively, casting it "all the way through until your initiative point". None of this "Made-For-TV-Witchery-Magic" where the caster simply points a finger or waves a hand and "poof goes the spell". One of my pet peeves for virtually ALL TV "magic characters", like you see in a lot of Supernaturals, or, the worst offender, Charmed, or in other such TV shows. I guess for TV they don't want to freak out all the religious folks with a character gesticulating and chanting and whatnot. I find that "poof!" type spellcasting to be...er...not my cup o' joe, lets say.
Long story short...
DM: Magic energies surround you and...[rolls Grimlocks attack, checks to see if it hits by more than 5; rolls/describes appropriately]. The Mind Flayer Arcanist starts to cast it's spell. Fighter, roll to hit with Advantage.
Moral Of The Story: The Grimlock should have protected the caster...now the Grimlock and the Mind Flayer are going to die for their lack of judgement.
Key things: Casting a spell takes "the beginning of the round up to and including your initiative number". Others can attack a caster in the process of casting, with Advantage. A caster hit must make a Concentration check, as per normal.
No, it's not "RAW", but it's how we do it and it's what works for us. Besides...after almost 4 decades of doing it this way, I found it all but hopeless to try and "rejigger" my brain that way when playing D&D.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
The Grimlock *dashes*, which means he used his action to double-move. Which is why he didn't attack the caster on that round.
You are correct on your mini/video game feel. I create my maps and miniatures in photoshop, and my players look at the tv as I move the 'miniatures' accordingly during the session.
"Shield" was a mistake - I meant Shield of Faith, which is again a mistake because the wizard cannot cast divine spells. So let's assume he's a cleric, not a wizard.
The whole "everyone acts at the same time in 6 seconds" is
imo, because if the 1st one who acts is an elf ranger and fires an arrow at a goblin killing it, the goblin never does anything on that round and dies. So what was the goblin's action during that round? What did it do for 6 seconds while the elf loaded its bow, aimed and fired at it? Was it laying still? No, it would either attack, run away, sneak, call for help or whatever. But it didn't. Because through initiative, while indeed the round is 6 seconds, whoever acts first totally controls what will happen to those who play after. It contradicts reality and creates a magical 6 second time frame which is actually 6 x every character in the battle seconds, in order to prevent the game from being tedious as hell. Because otherwise there would be utter chaos (everyone would have to write down what each character / creature is doing and then announce what happens at the same time in order to see what announcements contradict and cancel each other).So we can't really say that everyone acts at the same time, while the very nature of the initiative defies that rule. The creatures which act first in the initiative have a clear advantage over those who rolled lower in the initiative. They literally have the power to kill another before that other can lay a finger. This is undisputable.
So *why* can't the higher in initiative creature ready an action to stop a spellcaster from casting a spell?
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