5E: Last Gasp of Theater of Mind D&D? (aka D&D Killed by Windows 10!)

I think surreal is one portion of the problem.

Why?

The difference is that in the 'give me a FATE point' case, they know that the chandelier wasn't there until they asked about it, and they know they had input in creating it.

Not necessarily. You could just as easily say that before the FATE point was spent there may or may not have been a chandalier because that detail didn't matter and the expenditure of the point merely solidified that detail as something that did exist by making it matter. In other words, the player has the agency to bring something into focus that was previously out of focus and, consequently, formless.

Of course, for me the crazy thing about that is that a typical 'indy' style RPG probably relies more heavily on the skill of the GM than even a traditional RPG does. If you can't trust the GM to entertain the players in a dungeon crawl sort of game, you sure as heck can't trust the GM to entertain in a game that by and large depends entirely on the GM's skill as an oral story teller and improvisational actor.

So, your argument is that GMs of indy games can't be trusted to entertain because they run indy games?
 

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I'm not sure what the question is. Do you mean, "Why is being surreal a problem?" or do you mean, "Why do I think that there are problems other than it being surreal?"

To the former, it's because among my several aesthetic desires for play is the sense of exploring something real. One of my favorite authors is JRR Tolkien, and he achieves in his work a certain quality of being a subcreation, of being alive, of being real, and of being tangible that I associate with the best sorts of fiction - this quality of transcending their immaterial state and though imaginary and fictional and insubstantial, nevertheless having qualities like things that are real. It's what I associate creativity with - reification of the things that are not.

To the later, it's because there are I think problems beyond the breaking of the fourth wall and the interruption of the immersive qualities of play. For example, I think you risk being both the person who introduces the problem and the solution, which isn't the experience of play but rather is the experience of authorship. And I think the experience of being a partial author is in terms of play, more satisfying than being an author. The joys of authorship are different, and involve the satisfaction of having made something, but the process itself isn't in necessarily (and is rarely) fun. It's work. You do it anyway for what you'll make in the end, and for what you hope to communicate. But I don't think of it is as playful.

You could just as easily say that before the FATE point was spent there may or may not have been a chandalier because that detail didn't matter and the expenditure of the point merely solidified that detail as something that did exist by making it matter. In other words, the player has the agency to bring something into focus that was previously out of focus and, consequently, formless.

Yes, but you can do this without a metagame mechanic, and without giving the player explicit authorial authority. A player can draw attention to the fact that this room, because of the nature of the room that has been described - "a ballroom" or "a grand foyer" - probably has a chandelier, where before no one was paying attention to that likely fact. And a player can do that in any setting and with any system we choose. Bringing something into focus is something a player can do if they have any amount of agency in play at all. But if a player can literally invoke the chandelier into play as an unquestioned solid fact because he wants or needs one, it's a very different thing.

So your argument is that GMs of indy games can't be trusted to entertain because they run indy games?

Wait? What?!?!? I didn't say anything like that at all. My argument is that advocates of Indy games appear to act as if the authority of the GM needs to be mitigated because the GM can't trusted, and yet the games that they produce tend to contradictorily require very high levels of GMing skill. Presumably if you have a high skill GM, then Indy games can be quite fun (and in fairness, there a lot of features of a game like FATE I really like). But then again, if you have a high skill GM, you don't need to worry about what the system is like.
 

“If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows.”

Plato
 

“If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows.”

Plato

What's the context of this Plato quote? A) What was Plato talking about, B) what are you cleverly printing it here for?

As quoted, it appears Plato is commenting on the supplanting of oral tradition/memorizing facts for the written word. And in our Google-era, there are indicators that people are indeed less inclined to remember knowledge, and instead simply google facts up when they need them.

However, it is ironic, that if Plato is indeed moaning about the new fangle invention called writing, which is what carries his words to us so many centuries later.
 


Is the world more surreal? Yes. The tendency for details to appear as they become relevant does feel a little surreal.

You see, I don't get that. It happens all the time in fiction, for example. The author of a noir Private Investigator novel does not go on for five pages describing every little thing that is on the PI's desk and in the drawers. When the phone rings, he reaches over and picks up the phone that wasn't mentioned explicitly before, but we all kind of assumed was there. He reaches into the drawer and pulls out a bottle of whiskey and a glass, and nobody finds that "surreal". Rarely do authors give you *all* details before they become relevant.

The FATE mechanic is playing off exactly that tendency for details to become relevant only when they become relevant. Because, to be frank, if you as a GM spend time to detail everything that *might* become relevant, the session will be spent describing the first tavern room, and nary an action will be made.
 

Yeah. I've never played a D&D game where someone didn't say "Is there an X in the room?", "Sure. There's one on the altar."

Players ask questions about locations all the time and GMs sometimes add info. Some games have mechanics which codify that, but it happens in all games. You never describe everything.

And of course some games turn that into an art form in a truly majestic way.
 

Again, your example. I don't see why I need to quote rules or make up hypotheticals when you've offered a perfectly fitting example of just why I feel mechanics like that don't suit an RPG.

Don't suit YOU.

The mechanic does not suit YOU.

YOU don't want to play it, that's fine. But you start to proscribe things out of the circle of RPGdom, and I'm going to start looking at you really funny. I am apt to begin to scowl.

"Role playing game" is a genre of entertainment. Proscription ("this is *not* D&D" or "this is *not* an RPG") is not a constructive way to go about genre definition. Genres are rarely defined by what doesn't belong in them, but by what does belong in them. If you have enough of what does belong, you usually belong in the genre, even if you have a bunch of stuff that isn't on the list. Positive definitions are more useful to us than negative ones.
 

You see, I don't get that. It happens all the time in fiction, for example. The author of a noir Private Investigator novel does not go on for five pages describing every little thing that is on the PI's desk and in the drawers. When the phone rings, he reaches over and picks up the phone that wasn't mentioned explicitly before, but we all kind of assumed was there. He reaches into the drawer and pulls out a bottle of whiskey and a glass, and nobody finds that "surreal". Rarely do authors give you *all* details before they become relevant.

The FATE mechanic is playing off exactly that tendency for details to become relevant only when they become relevant. Because, to be frank, if you as a GM spend time to detail everything that *might* become relevant, the session will be spent describing the first tavern room, and nary an action will be made.

I concur here.

As a GM, I find it improbable that I actually will remember to write down that there's a telephone on the desk and whiskey in the drawer. So when a player asks for that detail, I have to decide anyway.

I'm, not wholly keen on a rule that puts control of the answer to the question into the player's hands, but I see how it is a natural progression of idea from my situation.
 

I'm, not wholly keen on a rule that puts control of the answer to the question into the player's hands, but I see how it is a natural progression of idea from my situation.

Actually, as I understand the rule, though I admit to never actually having played a FATE game, the GM is still the final arbiter of whether or not the player gets to spend the Fate point. Thus the Control is still in the hands of the GM who is free to just say, "no."
 

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