D&D 5E 5e Skills - Why I Think a Defined Skill List Would Be Better

[Ahnehnois]

I'm a fan of the "skill tree" approach. One relatively short, very broad list of basic skills (Knowledge, Perception, Athletics) that is fixed and that you put your first points in. Then, a second level of specialized skills (Knowledge: Arcana/History/Planes, Perception: Sight/Sense Motive/Intuition, Athletics: Climb/Jump/Tumble) that has suggested ones but allows plenty of room for customization. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[an_idol_mind]

I know it would be blasphemous, but a lot of my general problems with skills in D&D could be fixed by taking Perception (or Listen/Search/Spot, or whatever) out and just making it an ability score. That's the one skill that always seems to come up no matter what style of game it is and which always seems to bite you in the ass if you don't take it. And I don't think lumping it in with Wisdom really works all that well because Wisdom is used for so many other things as well.

 

[jadrax]

I know it would be blasphemous, but a lot of my general problems with skills in D&D could be fixed by taking Perception (or Listen/Search/Spot, or whatever) out and just making it an ability score. That's the one skill that always seems to come up no matter what style of game it is and which always seems to bite you in the ass if you don't take it. And I don't think lumping it in with Wisdom really works all that well because Wisdom is used for so many other things as well.

I don't think making it a new Ability is needed, but certainly having a Perception score on your sheet outside of the Skills System might fix a lot of issues. Basically make it dependent upon nothing but class/background/theme.

 

[Ferghis]

I agree that a defined skill list would be better, but I really believe there is a step to examine BEFORE you get to determining a skill list: what do you want skills to do?

When I think about that question, I usually (I'm not that consistent) end up with the answer that I want them to do something very concrete, such as provide the character with one particular bit of knowledge, or get an NPC to react in a specific way once, or manipulate a non-character threat in a specific way once, and so on. I don't want a character to roll high on diplomacy and gain a friend for life: I want them to use negotiate and hope to get the NPC to do ONE nice thing for them. I don't want a character to use streetwise and gain access to an entire secret shop of illegal goods: I want the character use scrounge and find one specific illegal item they were specifically looking for. And so on. Skills should be defined so they have a small but measurable impact on the game.

I think that one of the problems that skills have posed in D&D is that a lot of people don't know how to apply them. And while the notion of leaving them vague so that each playing group can make what they want of them has some merit, it ends up leaving most people less than satisfied: after four editions of different skill-rules iterations, I've yet to see a "skill challenge" mechanic that really works well. My inclination, at this point, is to try making skills more specific in the results they want to achieve.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for a large number of skills, just better defined ones that have a mechanic that offers a more discrete result.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If it was kept as a selectable skill, I'd rather see "perception" get broken up into much more specific types of perception. So go back to "Search" (for finding hidden objects), "Wilderness Senses" (for noticing things in the wild), "Listen" (for having very good hearing), "Urban Senses" (for having keen eyes within the city), "Insight" (for observing other characters) etc. etc.

Because Perception as it stands now is just SO BROAD with what it applies to, it overshadows almost every other skill with how often it is rolled for and how useful it can be. But since the difference between the Wisdom mod and the Perception skill is only 3 points... if you tighten up and shrink what or how a perceptive character notices things... you aren't really handicapping that PC. Focusing him on a smaller subset of ways he is perceptive does not turn the skill suddenly useless. No more useless than something like Heraldric Lore.

 

[TwoSix]

If it was kept as a selectable skill, I'd rather see "perception" get broken up into much more specific types of perception. So go back to "Search" (for finding hidden objects), "Wilderness Senses" (for noticing things in the wild), "Listen" (for having very good hearing), "Urban Senses" (for having keen eyes within the city), "Insight" (for observing other characters) etc. etc.

Because Perception as it stands now is just SO BROAD with what it applies to, it overshadows almost every other skill with how often it is rolled for and how useful it can be. But since the difference between the Wisdom mod and the Perception skill is only 3 points... if you tighten up and shrink what or how a perceptive character notices things... you aren't really handicapping that PC. Focusing him on a smaller subset of ways he is perceptive does not turn the skill suddenly useless. No more useless than something like Heraldric Lore.

Or just make Perception a Wisdom check for other skills. Noticing something in the woods is a Wisdom check modified by your Wilderness Lore skill, for example.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Or just make Perception a Wisdom check for other skills. Noticing something in the woods is a Wisdom check modified by your Wilderness Lore skill, for example.

That works for me too.

The perception is automatically baked into Find/Remove Traps... you probably should have it baked into other skills as well. So Wilderness Lore includes finding someone who is hiding in the trees (since you know enough about forests to know where people would hide.) Heraldic Lore would include finding things within a castle (like secret doors, compartments in lockboxes etc.). Folklore would include perception within villages and hamlets, Animal Handling includes noticing animal sounds, behaviors etc.

Remove Perception as it's own skill altogether, and instead include its use as part of the other skills a PC might have.

* And on a similar note... perception would be included as part of the Dwarf's "Stonecunning" ability-- so the dwarf is better at noticing things underground. And thus I'd change out the Elf's "Keen Senses" ability (which right now applies to noticing EVERYTHING, which is ridiculously powerful) to a similar ability called "Treecunning"... where perception within the forests would be included in it.

 

[Minigiant]

1) All listed skill need a description so both DM and Player can have a starting point on what the skill is used for.

2) All skills need to be described so everyone knows how useful the skill is in this game.

Or else, "I use Forbidden Lore to read the sleepless and make the grue my pet."

 

[I'm A Banana]

They already have a defined list of skills. There's six of them:

Strength
Constitution
Dexterity
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma

Those little +3's are just circumstances under which you get a bonus to one of those six skills (for instance, you get a +3 to Intelligence checks to remember Forbidden Lore, or a +3 to Constitution checks to use Survival to get along in the wilderness).

But aside from that little quibble, I think I'm more in agreement with you than not.

 

[Remathilis]

Putting on my prognosticator hat...

There will be a list of skills in Next. It will be about 30 skills, each granting a +3 bonus, consisting of about a paragraph or two of info, and will not be all inclusive. It might look like this:

Commerce: You are skilled in the knowledge of buying and selling in the market. You can use this skill to haggle for good, appraise the value or quality of an item, and find a specific item or vendor in a crowded market. Additionally, you may have knowledge of a the workings of a trade or profession, such as innkeeper.