D&D (2024) 5e spell saves versus 4e spell attacks

[Undrave]

I got that; my point was that the only way it could be said to have "ultimately failed" is that it failed to get itself included in 5e. Which as noted in my post that you responded to was not a thing which can reasonably be called a failure of the mechanic. And even if it had failed in some way, it could not have been because people did not like being petrified without a roll of their own, because 4e did not do that anyway. (Not that I can remember anyway - there may have been the odd case but it was not typical.)

4e petrification was usually a multi-stage process where you had to fail multiple saving throws (the 4e kind where you needed to roll a 10 or more on a flat d20 at the end of your turn). Usually you'd get slowed first.

 

[glass]

4e petrification was usually a multi-stage process where you had to fail multiple saving throws (the 4e kind where you needed to roll a 10 or more on a flat d20 at the end of your turn). Usually you'd get slowed first.

Indeed. That was (part of) my point to @Stalker0; that even if 4e's defence model had failed in some way, it was not because people did not like being petrified (or similar) without a die roll, because as a matter of policy 4e did not do that (like you I also cannot say for sure that there was never a case, but if there was it was an individual error not a problem with the system in principle). Thanks for expanding on what die roll I was referring to.

 

[Stalker0]

Indeed. That was (part of) my point to @Stalker0; that even if 4e's defence model had failed in some way, it was not because people did not like being petrified (or similar) without a die roll, because as a matter of policy 4e did not do that (like you I also cannot say for sure that there was never a case, but if there was it was an individual error not a problem with the system in principle). Thanks for expanding on what die roll I was referring to.

While this certainty was something 4e did on occasion, just as often it did not do it. Many spells gave you the initial condition, and then you had to make saves on subsequent turns (or the end of your turn) to remove them. Tons of control spells work this way, so on the whole, in 4e you often were hit with conditions without getting a die roll.

 

[Undrave]

While this certainty was something 4e did on occasion, just as often it did not do it. Many spells gave you the initial condition, and then you had to make saves on subsequent turns (or the end of your turn) to remove them. Tons of control spells work this way, so on the whole, in 4e you often were hit with conditions without getting a die roll.

You got a die roll at the end of your next turn, or your Leader might give you one (or a bonus), or even an ally with the proper skill could spend an action to give you one.

And you could do the same thing to the enemies.

 

[glass]

While this certainty was something 4e did on occasion, just as often it did not do it. Many spells gave you the initial condition, and then you had to make saves on subsequent turns (or the end of your turn) to remove them. Tons of control spells work this way, so on the whole, in 4e you often were hit with conditions without getting a die roll.

"A condition", yes. Conditions that take you out of the fight like petrified, no. Being slowed, or weakened, or whatever may be inconvenient but they do not prevent you participating and they are not save-or-lose.

 

[James Gasik]

And most durations were "until the end of the attacker's next turn" as well.

 

[Horwath]

By the way, supposing eight abilities.

• Str-Con
• Dex-Ath
• Int-Per
• Cha-Wis

One can go back to the six abilities by assigning Wis and Per the same score, and Dex and Ath the same score. Hence there are only six scores.

or only 4 abilities

strength: current STR and CON mechanics, str&con saves, str skills
dexterity: current DEX mechanics, dex saves, dex skills, thief tools
Will power: current int, wis and cha saves, your magic ability, "aura" ability(like paladins)
cunning: your, I'm a smart guy ability, all int, wis and cha skills, most tool proficiencies, bonus skill tool or language proficiency per bonus.

 

[Yaarel]

or only 4 abilities

strength: current STR and CON mechanics, str&con saves, str skills
dexterity: current DEX mechanics, dex saves, dex skills, thief tools
Will power: current int, wis and cha saves, your magic ability, "aura" ability(like paladins)
cunning: your, I'm a smart guy ability, all int, wis and cha skills, most tool proficiencies, bonus skill tool or language proficiency per bonus.

The way the eight pair off, intentionally allows a campaign to assign the same score to both in the pair, effectively only four abilities.

 

[Horwath]

The way the eight pair off, intentionally allows a campaign to assign the same score to both in the pair, effectively only four abilities.

only 4 abilities, more penalty if you dump one.

standard array, with racials pre-included:
16,14,12,10.

 

[Yaarel]

only 4 abilities, more penalty if you dump one.

standard array, with racials pre-included:
16,14,12,10.

Or backgrounds pre-included.