D&D 5E 5E Survivor - Deities (Part 4: Eberron) Olladra Advances!

Yaarel

He Mage
She is a protector of home and community, not a kitchen slave.
Though considering your a follower of a religion who’s principles is mass murdering anyone that looks different from you, I shouldn’t be surprised at such slanderous defaming. 😉😝
The Silver Flame ideology is formally Lawful Good. I understand this Lawful alignment to mean, they strive to do Good things as a group for other groups. Its myth of the self-sacrifice of the cuatls to save all life, is an example of a group doing something Good for an other group.

The Silver Flame as an institution values ethical behavior. Ethics is normally simple and obvious ... until self-defense comes along and screws it up. The lycanthrope cataclism treatened to destroy all peoples. The members of the Silver Flame had no choice but to defend life against the violence and expansionism of the lycanthropes.

But now in the aftermath of that crisis, the institution is coming to terms with the atrocities that it itself committed in the name of that defense. Members are still in the process of atoning for their own sins, and figuring out how to prevent similar atrocities from being intellectually possible in the future. It should be impossible for a person to commit such atrocities and still be able to declare themselves a member of the Silver Flame. Yet members who justify and even praise the excesses still exist here and there. Some even seek to commit future atrocities. Every member of a Silver Flame community must hold their leaders accountable, critique any unethical ideologies or behaviors, and remove any unethical leaders from power.
 
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Bolares

Hero
Heh, I felt guilty going after your guy.



I agree, the Eberron take on the "Home" archetype is a good one, and deep, where the figure extends to personify the concept of the wider "community", the home of a community. This is kinda cool. In the sense of the wider community, the woman also becomes active outside the house.

Still, the origin of the archetype is what it is, woman in kitchen. I had to choose one to downvote. It is also the least Norse, where the hearth is masculine, relating to the fire jotnar Logi (sometimes confusing with Loki).

That said, the Sovereign Host "Home" and her husband "Magic", might have a Frigg and O'ðinn vibe.

I am starting to find the heteronormativity of the archetypes annoying. To be fair, if "Magic" relates with O'ðinn, his partly feminine characteristics subvert it slightly. Note, Freyja is the personification of seiðr magic, while O'ðinn is more specifically the personification of the altered state of mind while doing it.

In the Norse worldview, these personifications arent "gods" (in the English meaning of the term), but rather are the things in themselves. When people do magic, this magic is a living being, with a mind of its own. The magic behaves the way it does because these are the kinds of things that "Magic" likes and chooses to do. An object literally has a personality. When physical phenomena have their own consciousnesses, is animism.

But Eberron actually has this things-in-themselves quality, explicity. For example, the grain harvest has a mind of its own, and this animistic being as a personality is "Fertility". A forge has its own mind, the "Forge". The Sovereign Host does seem to elevate these animistic beings as masters with servants, whence polytheism, but the animistic nature of the Host keeps the earlier animism going on. Which is cool! Actually, if an Eberron sacred tradition views these personifications of the Sovereign Host horizontally as "friends" and neighbors, rather than vertically as lords and masters, I suspect the Eberron Sovereign Host can work as a nonpolytheistic and strictly animistic worldview.

Relatedly.

It annoys me that Eberron has "Fertility", who extends to the concept of sexuality, be only feminine. This carries a slight connotation of sexual descrimination that objectifies only women. In Norse tradition, Freyr and Freyja are counterparts of both masculine and feminine sexualities. There might even be archeological evidence of homosexuality between the pair, perhaps via shapeshifting. This also conveys a transgender aspect of sexual beings.

In any case, I want Eberron archetypes to be more explicitly inclusive. Ideally for me, Eberron traditions repesent four genders: masculine, feminine, both, and neither. Any gender can be in a relationship with any gender, including the same gender.

Re the genders of archetypes. The Norse perceive the sun as feminine and the moon as masculine, unlike the Greeks and Romans. In the Sovereign Host too, the "Sun" is feminine. That makes me wonder if her brother the "Soldier" is actually a personification of the moon, with a masculine spin. Thus the phases of the moon are a soldier dutifully donning armor for each mission and removing it afterward. The masculinity of the moon feels Norse. However, the Norse have clan warriors, but not really "soldiers" in the way that empires do.

In sum, I like how the Sovereign Host has an animistic sensibility. Also, Norse traditions seem to inspire some of this Eberron tradition, while the traditions of other ethnicities do too. The gendering of the traditions are concern, especially if vaguely stereotypical or noninclusive. Here in the Survivor thread, the archetypes of the Sovereign Host list separately, despite comprising a single sacred tradition. So, the itemization forces me to think about which archetypes I like best.
I wouldn't go as deep in to one or another real religion. Keith baker is not a big fan of directly mirroring real world cultures. The sovereing host is very amorphous and lacks a lot of structure. The representation we see tends to represent a more common representation by humans in the five nations. Those gods have many different "faces" depending on who is worshiping them, so I wouldn't go so far is personifiyng them. Also, about "the soldier" being the moon, eberron has 13-1 moons, so I doubt there is a conection there.
 

Bolares

Hero
The Silver Flame ideology is formally Lawful Good. I understand this Lawful alignment to mean, they strive to do Good things as a group for other groups. Its myth of the self-sacrifice of the cuatls to save all life, is an example of a group doing something Good for an other group.

The Silver Flame as an institution values ethical behavior. Ethics is normally simple and obvious ... until self-defense comes along and screws it up. The lycanthrope cataclism treatened to destroy all peoples. The members of the Silver Flame had no choice but to defend life against the violence and expansionism of the lycanthropes.

But now in the aftermath of that crisis, the institution is coming to terms with the atrocities that it itself committed in the name of that defense. Members are still in the process of atoning for their own sins, and figuring out how to prevent similar atrocities from being intellectually possible in the future. It should be impossible for a person to commit such atrocities and still be able to declare themselves a member of the Silver Flame. Yet members who justify and even praise the excesses still exist here and there. Some even seek to commit future atrocities. Every member of a Silver Flame community must hold their leaders accountable, critique any unethical ideologies or behaviors, and remove any unethical leaders from power.
The "problem" here is that there is some mixing of what the Silver flame as a force is, what the silver flame as an religion is, the silver flame as an institution is and what it's followers are. The force is Lawful Good. The religion strives to be lawful good, but has failed at that at times, and has been splintered (the pure flame for an example). The institution is made of a lot of people in a structure, and also governs a nation. As an institution it is Neutral at best, depending on who is in charge of it at the time. The followers of the silver flame are as diverse as anything in Eberron. That is all beutifully complicated, and we didn't even mention the shadow in the flame yet....
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I wouldn't go as deep in to one or another real religion. Keith baker is not a big fan of directly mirroring real world cultures.

The sovereing host is very amorphous and lacks a lot of structure. The representation we see tends to represent a more common representation by humans in the five nations. Those gods have many different "faces" depending on who is worshiping them, so I wouldn't go so far is personifiyng them.

Heh, yet, the sacred traditions within Eberron, have the most reallife verisimilitude of any other D&D setting.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
The "problem" here is that there is some mixing of what the Silver flame as a force is, what the silver flame as an religion is, the silver flame as an institution is and what it's followers are. The force is Lawful Good. The religion strives to be lawful good, but has failed at that at times, and has been splintered (the pure flame for an example). The institution is made of a lot of people in a structure, and also governs a nation. As an institution it is Neutral at best, depending on who is in charge of it at the time. The followers of the silver flame are as diverse as anything in Eberron. That is all beutifully complicated, and we didn't even mention the shadow in the flame yet....
Members of the Silver Flame value Lawful Good, and lean toward in their behaviors. But individuals and local communities can and do fall short of the ideal. Still, they remind each other about their values, and their behaviors generally reflect these values.

One need not be Perfect in order to be Good.
 

Bolares

Hero
Members of the Silver Flame value Lawful Good, and lean toward in their behaviors. But individuals and local communities can and do fall short of the ideal. Still, they remind each other about their values, and their behaviors generally reflect these values.

One need not be Perfect in order to be Good.
Well.. there are plenty Evil members of the silver flame. Either in the high clergy or in the pure flame. The flame doesn't discriminate who gets power from it.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Arawai (Fertility) 18
Aureon (Magic) 17
Balinor (Hunt) 13
Boldrei (Home) 25
Dol Arrah (Sun) 24
Kol Korran (Trade) 16
Olladra (Luck) 25
Onatar (Forge) 15
The Traveler 23+1=24
The Silver Flame 21
The Blood of Vol 15
Cults of the Dragon Below 20-2-18
The Path of Light (Enlightenment) 24
 

RealAlHazred

Frumious Flumph (Your Grace/Your Eminence)
Arawai (Fertility) 18
Aureon (Magic) 17
Balinor (Hunt) 13
Boldrei (Home) 25
Dol Arrah (Sun) 24
Kol Korran (Trade) 16
Olladra (Luck) 25
Onatar (Forge) 15
The Traveler 24
The Silver Flame 21 - 2 = 19
The Blood of Vol 15 + 1 = 16

Cults of the Dragon Below 18
The Path of Light (Enlightenment) 24
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Arawai (Fertility) 18
Aureon (Magic) 17
Balinor (Hunt) 13
Boldrei (Home) 25
Dol Arrah (Sun) 24
Kol Korran (Trade) 16
Olladra (Luck) 25
Onatar (Forge) 15
The Traveler 24
The Silver Flame 19 + 1 = 20
The Blood of Vol 16 - 2 = 14
Cults of the Dragon Below 18
The Path of Light (Enlightenment) 24
 

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