D&D General 5e System Redesign through New Classes and Setting. A Thought Experiment.

Have you seen the BECMI'S system? It makes 5e's system look like elementary school math..

4e MATH was bad. It was fixed come MM2. That's not a failing of Challenge rating though. Still rather have 72 pages of errata than TSR saying "I don't know, what do you think we are, game designers?!"

It was a result of the arms race between PCs using broken splats and monsters designed not to die before they can even act. Then again, D&D since the 1980s didn't view combat as a fail state so they wanted fights that were dynamic and lasted a few rounds. The whole premise of this thread has been that D&D combat ends up ac race to nuke the monsters before they can act and how monsters don't advance quick enough to meet the churn of splats and charops.

I sound like a broken record, but there is an edition where PCs don't get builds and nova potential, HP isn't inflated and monster math stays relevant. BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia. Every other edition ends up in the arms race you're complaining about in some form or another.

B/X is even better than BECMI.

Its on my list of favorite D&Ds. Best D&D to DM.
BUT its a bit to basic. Modern players wont go for it. I can get my groups to play versions that include some AD&D classes and spells eg clones.

And that whole THAC0 thing.

They'll pick 5E every time though.
 

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Listen, I get this is a heated debate about how useful you, personally, find CR as compared to a wholly new DM or whatever, but that's really not what this thread is about and I'd appreciate it if we could stop this particular derailment, please?
 

B/X is even better than BECMI.

Its on my list of favorite D&Ds. Best D&D to DM.
BUT its a bit to basic. Modern players wont go for it. I can get my groups to play versions that include some AD&D classes and spells eg clones.

And that whole THAC0 thing.

They'll pick 5E every time though.
There are modernized/updated versions of B/X with more options, like OSE and ACKS II. And there are more modern games inspired by old school ideas like the Without Number series and Shadowdark. It doesn't have to be the official game.
 


I disagree. The point of a healer is to mete out those healing resources wisely.
The game is better for not needing a dedicated healer for the game to function.
For healing purposes, you're going from

Cleric player tracks: hit points, spells remaining
Everyone else tracks: hit points
Total things tracked = number of characters plus one

To

Cleric player tracks: hit points, healing surges, spells remaining
Everyone else tracks: hit points, healing surges
Total things tracked = number of characters doubled, plus one.

How in any way is this not adding mechanical complexity?
The cleric also had to track the tradeoff of burning spells to heal, and you are leaving out the fact that two players having to negotiate the use of resources in order to do the thing is a layer of complexity. It is also inherently a more complex task than a person making a decision on their own.
As in, everyone has self-healing abilities beyond simple resting? No thanks.
What?
Simple resting is already stupid-level more generous in 4e and 5e than it should be. Allowing everyone to self-heal on top of that, plus stil have magical healing available, is too much on top of too much.
What the hell are you even talking about?
 


Though you probably intend this as sarcasm, it's also quite true.
not really…

What's needed are those tips, pointers, and examples; presented as rough guidelines and ideas rather than hard-coded rules or instructions.
depends on how many tips, pointers and examples you provide and how good they are, but stuff like
Monster creation? Figure it out yourself, using the published monsters as guidelines and for ideas, tips, and inspiration.
is not the least bit helpful, it does not get anyone any closer to a solution / approach
 


Not sure what you intend the end if that sentence to be. I know D&D has more players. I also know all those games have players and are successful by their own standards.
but none of them are by D&D / WotC standards…

It’s great that they are successful by their own standards, but that qualifier also explains why WotC is not following their path
 

So here's what I'm thinking would be a decent place for the kind of powers the different classes get to pull out:

Martials get 4 exertion per encounter. Their class provides them abilities that cost an exertion to augment what they were already doing with a weapon attack or whatever. So you swing on your turn and add a Rider on top of it that deals more damage, pushes enemies around, whatever. For 2 exertion, you can do the thing -harder-. Doing more damage, extra targets, further distances, etc. All based on the class feature.

Arcane gets 2 spell slots per encounter. Arcane Spells tend to be more effective than what a martial gets out of 1 exertion, but similar in power to what 2 exertion does. For a straight up spellcaster class there's a whole spell list with bigger and smaller spells (Daily vs Encounter) but for Arcane characters that aren't full casters, like a Swordmage gish-tank, the spells are class abilities like the martials get, but they still get to pull their daily spells off the big spell list they share with the rest of the Arcane.

Divine gets 2 spell slots and 1 channel divinity per encounter. Channel divinity is supportive regardless of your specific class, though whether it's healing or a buff or something is both class and/or subclass specific. Spells are a little less powerful than the Arcane ones, but always have some beneficial effect separate from straight throughput.

Nature gets 3 spell slots. All their spells that deal damage also add control effects. All their control stuff is just flatly better than anyone else's controls. Spells have a similar throughput to Divine casters. Whether you're in melee, blasting AoE, or skirmishing, you're doing your best to lock people down for funsies and effectiveness!

Occultists get 2 spell slots. Again, less straight throughput from Arcane, closer to Divine. But all of their abilities provide some kind of debuff to the target. That can be some control like knockback or drag, but penalties to damage, healing, movement, attack rolls, etc are all, also, part of the schtick. Also some Curses along the way because come on, curses are important!

Psychics get 2 Psi Dice. Psi dice don't always get expended when you use them. You apply them to your powers, powers get stronger, then you roll the dice to see if you keep it. You can apply up to two psi dice to your powers, but you always risk losing them. If you do, you have to wait to get them back. If you don't lose them, you get to keep using them.
 

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