D&D General 5e System Redesign through New Classes and Setting. A Thought Experiment.

[AnotherGuy]

But in terms of balance and pacing, it usually makes for a very high variance system where players can trade much better performance now for much worse performance later (often 2-10x better performance now) , very similar to one of the primary drivers of the 5MWD in d&d. This can be overcame by enough constant time pressure (narratively difficult to justify) or by making it relatively difficult to recover (usually players solve for this so it’s not a very robust solution IMO).

You may be right, and that could be that is why these rules seem to be working for us.

Our current storyline in the campaign is under a constant time pressure...because of x event which is to happen (90 days +3d10), with many options available on the table to pursue to assist the characters with x event, but there is a balance between pursuing these options to obtain benefits and being late for x event (i.e. players arrive after 90 days + 3d10) which increases the difficulty (i.e. DM gets a larger XP budget for encounters).

Event = Tiamat is summoned at the Well of Dragons from the 9-Hells (ToD)
PCs will always arrive at the most exciting part, her in the process of being summoned (so they are never really late).

The quests they go on assist in one or another way
But there is a deadline date of 90+3d10 which I will only roll for once they arrive at the Well of Dragons

If they arrive after that date (since we keep a timeline), my XP budget to build the final AP encounters increases by a certain amount per day, signifying their lateness and the cult having acquired more resources.
These mechanics are all player-facing.

That said oftentimes you just don’t have players that really analyze the homebrew system to really optimize for it (and since there’s no internet telling them how, you probably don’t have to deal with extreme optimizations). Meaning for localized small sample play of a novel homebrew system, you probably never see most issues of homebrew system. So this may not be an issue in practice for you.

We have used the system for several years, tweaking it here/there, where the players are now proficient enough with it - thankfully, but yes you are right this can be an issue with homebrew systems.

There are benefits to higher variance systems. Mostly that players can navigate a single overturned encounter or bad rolls whereas in a low or no variance system, such things are likely to kill them.

As such I’d recommend focusing on limiting your ceiling of pc output, so that it’s in the sweet spot. Probably ceiling = 1.5*floor. Going to low variance tends to make the game feel samey and less fun, almost like your combat choices don’t really matter.

If you can lock down this sweet spot of variance down you probably could make your preferred system style work better. It’s just most trade exhaustion/hp/hit dice for resource systems tend toward extremely high variance compared to the floor output.

I was fortunate to have a play group that allowed all these homebrew changes and experimentation for the last 15 years...

Other issues that make such systems hard to develop is appropriate cost. If abilities don’t cost enough resource tradeoff they are almost always use. If they cost too much they are almost never use. That Goldilocks zone is really hard to hit in such systems IMO.

True. To really test the strength of our system we'd have to start from level 1 again...

 

[Micah Sweet]

And that alone is a lesson that comes with experience. A new DM who thinks a 1st level party can handle two ogres isn't going to have the awareness to know how to fail forward. D&D fights are lethal damage unless the DM knows to pull his punches.

There are a lot of situations where a DM can ruin his campaign: throwing an impossible fight, giving a player a magic item that is too powerful too early, underestimating PC ability and cake walking them, Monty Hauling loot, etc. The game should provide a system to at least attempt to prevent the those easy to pitfalls until they feel comfortable with experimenting.

To me, that "system" is good advice, not hard rules that try to codify what is IMO more art than science.

 

[Steampunkette]

Yes.
Personally I had a love-hate with 4e powers. I loved the key words and flexibility of it all, I loved the narrative description provided, I loved their simplicity, but I struggled not seeing them as playing cards.

Totally get that. It was also hell on wheels to try and build anything for because of the powers structure. SO repetitive to make a 30 level class where you're re-writing upgraded earlier material and trying to add more flowers to it.

Yes, nice - really like this.
I always felt cantrips should go this direction.

That just nerfs casters on a per-round basis...

The recharge mechanic is great for monsters but feels game-y for characters.
It works for monsters, because then it is not on the DM deciding and because there is no fixed recharge the players cannot also meta game and definitely know the dragon doesn't have their dragon breath for x rounds...

Oh, nah. I'm not talking about changing the breath weapon of a dragon. That'd still be on dice rolls in theory. Just giving the player energy back as they recover.

I always prefer players having the option to decide how far they want to push their characters without being dictated to by fixed mechanics. To give you an example
Instead of saying every 5th round as a fixed time constraint you get abc power back, I'd rather the player say my character attempts to cast another magic missile and suffer the level of exhaustion, or burn through x HD or I roll to see if I get exhausted...etc

This, though, brings us back to both a Death Spiral -and- the 5 minute adventuring day issue. If you can burn yourself into exhaustion, or burn hit dice, or hit points, or whatever else, you wind up needing a long rest to clear the problems. It goes counter to the idea of fixing ability pacing.

We have a similar rule where x hit point damage (which is stamina in our game) can be avoided by
Rolling on a Lingering Injury table, taking a Level of Exhaustion, Damaging their Armour/Shield...etc
These are player choices.

Sure. But they're player choices that specifically go back to the problem this idea is trying to fix or change. You're just trading "I use all my spell slots and need a long rest" to "I used all my HD/Exhaustion/Etc and need a long rest."

Neat ideas! I think that some sort of in-Initiative mode trigger to regen a resource that ties into the class fantasy would be cool too. Like maybe a Barbarian has “Bloodlust, gain 1 exertion when you land a killing blow” or Occultists can tap their HD or something to replenish, Nature is like “when a creature escapes a control effect” etc?

This could be something... But your options for equivalent and different concepts are pretty limited. You could also get back into "Bag of Rats" territory where the Barbarian pulls a rat out of a bag, crushes it, and gets their exertion back.

I’m assuming a greater emphasis on ritual casting for out of combat applications, maybe even powered by HD?

Ritual casting as a thing, sure. More that "Encounter Powers" can also apply to non-combat scenes. So you need to infiltrate the compound? Two spell slots. Check your list and pick the ones you wanna use.

Hmm... what about a "Catch your Breath" action? "So long as you make no attacks and cast no spells on your turn, and move no more than half your movement, you recover two exertion, one spell slot, your channel divinity, or a psi die, and may expend a number of hit dice up to your proficiency bonus to recover hit points."

So in the middle of the battle, after the Sorcerer dumps a couple of big spells on the battlefield, she backs off from the fight, catches her breath, -doesn't- use any cantrips or attacks against the enemies, and just spends her time recovering long enough to pull out one more spell.

No Death Spiral. No using HD to fuel mechanics (but you can 'healing surge' a bit). And you get to control when you do it... But you leave yourself and your party open to attack rather than actually do anything immediately useful like using some of your at-will damage dealing capabilities?

For some classes, like a rogue, this wouldn't be something you do lightly since their at-will damage (sneak attack) is most of their throughput and their exerting abilities are more focused on adding riders to their at-will stuff.

Would that be a bit better for folks?

 

[zakael19]

This could be something... But your options for equivalent and different concepts are pretty limited. You could also get back into "Bag of Rats" territory where the Barbarian pulls a rat out of a bag, crushes it, and gets their exertion back.

I mean sure but I was just tossing examples out there! Easy solution is make it 1/encounter when you…

Even more interesting might be to tie it to things that might happen off-turn, via coordination. Like if the barbarian has stuff that gives them an edge in knocking people prone or something, 1/encounter when an ally attacks a creature you’ve tripped; for the Druid something around control effects; etc.

Draw Steel! does this to promote teamwork and attention and I think it’s pretty smart.

 

[zakael19]

I’m not familiar enough about that game to know if it does or doesn’t work there. I’m skeptical enough that I wouldn’t just take anyone’s word for it, not because the game couldnt do that, but because most people suck at in depth analysis.

Explaining what about those interlocking systems makes you think it works there would be helpful though.

Having a single class with that style of ability helps compared to all having it, as that limitation reduces the party floor vs ceiling variance. But theres very much table variance around what happens when that class has traded too much whatever for his abilities. Does the party rest or push on. And even though it limits party floor vs ceiling variance, it could still drive too much overall variance there. As an extreme example 100x floor is less than 1000x floor, but both really push towards resting.

Nope, not at all. DS! has done a ton of play testing and has really tight and fairly flat math. The system is very intentional.

Talents are the only class that can go into the "negative" on their per-round accumulated Heroic Resource. Doing so makes them strained. Each ability has a normal and strained outcome, sometimes you take stamina damage for using an ability when strained; often the ability changes in a way that follows the fiction of a psionic mind losing control (the resource is Clarity, when you're strained you're not clear of mind to focus) - flinging people instead of calmly sliding them with your mind; hurting yourself when you mindspike others; etc.

It's brilliant; the player has the option to come out swinging hard; or power an ability they dont have the resources for if it changes the tactical situation, but they pay a cost primarily in changed options for next round (and in some cases, the strained version may be better in a situation!).

(As a side note, the Talent is by far the most flavorful and best executed psionist I've seen anywhere)

 

[FrogReaver]

Very gamist idea, but what if quick recovery like a long rest costed xp?

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope, not at all. DS! has done a ton of play testing and has really tight and fairly flat math. The system is very intentional.

Talents are the only class that can go into the "negative" on their per-round accumulated Heroic Resource. Doing so makes them strained. Each ability has a normal and strained outcome, sometimes you take stamina damage for using an ability when strained; often the ability changes in a way that follows the fiction of a psionic mind losing control (the resource is Clarity, when you're strained you're not clear of mind to focus) - flinging people instead of calmly sliding them with your mind; hurting yourself when you mindspike others; etc.

It's brilliant; the player has the option to come out swinging hard; or power an ability they dont have the resources for if it changes the tactical situation, but they pay a cost primarily in changed options for next round (and in some cases, the strained version may be better in a situation!).

(As a side note, the Talent is by far the most flavorful and best executed psionist I've seen anywhere)

That’s cool and all but you’ve not really explained it. The biggest takeaway is that you really like the implementation. But you’ve not explained how the intertwining game systems make it work for pacing and balance at all.

As an example I can swing hard or not. How much harder is hard? What would make me not want to keep swinging hard as much as possible and full rest after the encounter?

 

[Steampunkette]

Very gamist idea, but what if quick recovery like a long rest costed xp?

The majority of tables, these days, use Milestone progression rather than individual XP rewards. So it wouldn't work for most players.

 

[FrogReaver]

The majority of tables, these days, use Milestone progression rather than individual XP rewards. So it wouldn't work for most players.

Most players seem to play fairly linear adventure paths. I don’t think pacing and 5MWD is as big of a concern for them in the first place as the adventure paths narrative pacing and time pressure usually curtails the worst of the 5MWDs.

So if that’s who you are solving pacing for I’d argue it’s mostly a non-issue for them.

 

[Steampunkette]

No more Bonus Actions.

So part of the idea, here, is to streamline combat a bunch. Something like Barbarian Rage would go from being a bonus action to an encounter ability activated with either a weapon attack or a strength check and the expenditure of an exertion. But that does leave us with several marginal problems.

1) Monks and Rogues both rely on bonus action economy for survival and damage throughput.
2) Sorcerers access Quicken Spell for bonus action throughput.
3) Dual wielding relies on bonus actions for throughput benefits.

So here's my thoughts on each of these things:

1a) Monks and Rogues get to use their special class features (dash, disengage, dodge) as part of their Movement each turn.
1b) Monk throughput goes from a bonus action off-hand attack to just additional attacks with their action. You just add another attack in there, and spending ki/exertion adds more to the attack action, rather than splintering off into an additional action.
2) Quicken Spell lets you use two spell slots on your turn, wiping out your magical access, until you recover, for big bursty damage.
3a) Dual Wielding doesn't give you additional attacks. If you hit while dual-wielding you can give up your ability bonus to damage to roll the off-hand weapon's damage in its place. If you miss with your main hand you can reroll the attack to only deal your off-hand weapon's damage die.
3b) Rogue Sneak attack applies to a successful attack, regardless of which hand lands it, once per turn.

Most players seem to play fairly linear adventure paths. I don’t think pacing and 5MWD is as big of a concern for them in the first place as the adventure paths narrative pacing and time pressure usually curtails the worst of the 5MWDs.

So if that’s who you are solving pacing for I’d argue it’s mostly a non-issue for them.

5MWD is absolutely an issue with those adventures. Yes, narrative pacing exists to some extent in several of them, but it's usually seen more as a burden than it is a boon.

Take Tomb of Annihilation, for example. It's got a fantastic hex-crawl setup with tons of material to enjoy for many sessions of gameplay! And pretty much all of it is single encounters, or one encounter with several easily bypassed encounters, with many days of long rests between them. And any random encounters are, also, one-off fights before you take a long rest because you only get one random encounter a day. It literally -trains- you to dump all your power every time you're in an encounter through the early game, and then punishes you for maintaining that behavior once you reach Omu itself.

Well. NEBULOUSLY punishes you. People you don't know and don't really care about are the ones dying off until the soulmonger is destroyed. And once you've broken the soulmonger, you have access to Raise Dead and the like to get the handful of NPCs you've interacted with who were killed by it back without much fuss.

Perhaps the best example of a pre-written adventure with a well known ticking clock from the moment you begin play, and it trains you to play into a 5MWD.