D&D General 5e System Redesign through New Classes and Setting. A Thought Experiment.

My point was that if you are going to have a bunch of classes able to use encounter abilities, perhaps it would be helpful to have general pools of abilities shared over many classes (ala weapon masteries and shared spells) then have each class be an island of all unique abilities.
Oh, yeah. No, my idea is to map an encounter structure onto 5e, essentially. That way classes still have lots of mechanical definition between them, even if there's some overarching design structures that group power sources a bit.
Regardless, good luck with your project.
... yeeeeah... I'm probably going to wind up doing this thing, huh?

Thank you, Remathilis! I might need the luck...
 

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Something else that 4E got right was having terrain, traps, and similar things make the battlefield feel more alive. The encounter design philosophy behind 4E was a lot more enjoyable -both as a player and a GM. I also think that 4E handled feats and ability score increases a lot better than 5E.

Something that I feel contributes to 5E getting encounter design and balance wrong is that there are many things that should matter but the mentality behind 5E design claims that they do not. For example, there appears to be little or no value placed upon alternative modes of movement or on high rates of movement.
 

Something else that 4E got right was having terrain, traps, and similar things make the battlefield feel more alive. The encounter design philosophy behind 4E was a lot more enjoyable -both as a player and a GM. I also think that 4E handled feats and ability score increases a lot better than 5E.

Terrain worked for 4e due to the battlemat prerequisite. Those kinds of things are an absolute pain in theatre of the mind. Since 5e proposes to do either then you see the lowest common denominator.

Something that I feel contributes to 5E getting encounter design and balance wrong is that there are many things that should matter but the mentality behind 5E design claims that they do not. For example, there appears to be little or no value placed upon alternative modes of movement or on high rates of movement.

Your general statement here is fine. The specific example is just wrong. Mobility and movement type is always important to general PC optimization. Hit and run or kiting are some of the most effective tactics. That said usually the whole party has to buy in to such tactical abilities to really push the benefits and if even one party member doesn’t then it matters much less overall.
 

Terrain worked for 4e due to the battlemat prerequisite. Those kinds of things are an absolute pain in theatre of the mind. Since 5e proposes to do either then you see the lowest common denominator.

Daggerheart’s environments are a nice extension of things like lair effects without needing to go into full grid-level work. One downside of starting with 5e is you don’t have a GM side currency to spend to do effects without it seeming arbitrary; although you could work the Environment into the initiative order.
 

None of those games are going out of their way to present an unintentional system that can appeal to the broadest possible customer base.
I don’t think 5e is unintentional either, and they all at least try for broad appeal. I eg do not see Daggerheart as aiming for a more narrow appeal than D&D. It might have a more narrow appeal, but I don’t think that was the intention.

They all aim for ‘not quite 5e’ because going head on with D&D is a losing battle. None of them go for ‘I know it is a small niche, but that is the game I want to make’

I'm saying that WotC's drive to do anything they think will push sales higher and get more people buying their product, maintaining that #1 spot, is not shared by every other game company. Not every company would be WotC if they could.
I am not seeing that difference, I am pretty sure all companies would like to be WotC if they could
 

So... here's an example structure. The Swordmage. (To be clear, I haven't designed the class, yet, this is all theorycraft)
Importantly: Cantrips do not Scale in this setup. Maybe I should call them "Orisons" or something similar.

Level 1 they get cantrips, weapon proficiencies, etc. They also get 2 spell slots and access to 1st level spells. They can prepare a number of spells equal to Proficiency+Int with a minimum of 1. At least 4-5 of those spells are attacks, another 2-3 are defensive spells, there's also some control and utility in there, as well. They'll also get their spellbook-type mechanic at level 1 to store spells. You can still upcast lower level spells into your encounter spell slots, and your spell slots always act as the highest level spell you can currently cast.

At level 2 they get some new class features. The first allows them to use cantrips to dual-wield following all the same rules of dual-wielding as previously outlined except they cannot be holding a second weapon in their off-hand. The second grants them either an exploration or a social feature, depending on which option they choose. This puts all pillars into the class, and allows a character to build for social in city games and exploration for dungeon games or split the difference as they gain levels.

At level 3 they get their archetype. The archetype provides them with a new exploration/social feature, and a new throughput option that highlights their archetype's identity. Each of these archetype-identity abilities eats a spell slot to use, maintaining the encounter paradigm. You'll also get either a movement or defensive feature from your archetype that you just get to use as an action without expending spell slots.

Level 4 is your ASI or Feat, per normal rules. You also get a Social or Encounter feature, here.

Level 5 gives every class, Swordmage included, Extra Action. There is no extra attack. There are no scaling cantrips. Attacks, spells, everything is just another action and you get two of them at level 5. That's two sword swings, two cantrips, etc. This comes with the rule that you can only expend exertion/spell slots/psi dice on a single action on your turn. So you could spend exertion on your first action to make an attack with a rider, then make a second attack without spending exertion. Or use a spell slot and a cantrip. Or make a weapon attack and use a cantrip. However you wanna do it. Bonus points: Your Gish now Gish at level 5 by being able to attack and cast spells on the same turn.

Level 6, everyone gets their dailies! Wooooo! This is something you can use 3 times per long rest, but only once per encounter. For Arcane characters this is probably, like, "Greater Arcana" or something similar for a naming convention. They'll be spells much more potent than the traditional spell slots you get to use, and cannot be used on the same turn as an Encounter power. At the highest levels, this is where you get Wish and stuff. In addition to learning a number of these equal to proficiency+Int, you'll gain another social/exploration pillar option here.

Level 7 is where Swordmages get their next archetype ability which is a pair of things. A new spell slot active ability with a constant passive benefit tied to it, and an archetype-specific social or exploration ability.

Level 8's another ASI/Feat with a 3rd pillar ability.

Level 9 gets you a new class feature that is primarily defense/control. This could be a 'sticky' feature that allows you to force enemies to reroll a save against a control effect they just succeeded as a reaction to try and keep them trapped. Or resistance to a damage type. Small list of options.

Level 10 gets you a new big feature! This is a core class identity function which provides defensive benefits to yourself and your allies without the use of spell slots. Maybe the ability to drop a "Thunderdome" like ability, temporarily trapping enemies inside with you while keeping other enemies from helping them.

Level 11 onward: Mostly more spells and uses of spell slots. Occasionally you'll get some nifty features that provide benefits to your allies, but as a swordmage most of what you do is hit things with a sword and cast spells.

Worth noting: They get access to 2nd level spells at 5th level, 3rd at 9th level, 4th at 13th level, and 5th at 17th level. These are the levels where their encounter powers just straight up become better and more powerful, independent of class features. These are also the break-points where you get access to a new spell prepared (aside from improvements to intelligence).

Social or Exploration Features: Whenever you get one of these levels, you pick from one of two lists of what are, essentially, invocations. Every class will do this, and every class will get their own lists. Though there may be some overlap options for power sources. Every Martial character, for example, might be able to take Forced March exploration features that let them replace one ally's failed Con Save with martial character's success once per hour. Every Arcane character might be able to get a Knock invocation that lets them use the spell without using a spell slot or taking the time to do a ritual, making it more useful in dungeon encounters where spell slots are limited.
 

That’s cool and all but you’ve not really explained it. The biggest takeaway is that you really like the implementation. But you’ve not explained how the intertwining game systems make it work for pacing and balance at all.
I absolutely did, were there specific elements of the post that confused you and needed additional discussion? If you want to delve into the entire holistic design of DS! I think that's a little outside the scope of this thread. In short: it significantly refines the core of 4e powers and surges and adds in the idea of each class having a builder-currency they need to expend to power non-at-will abilities (or that they can spend to power up select actions).

1a) Monks and Rogues get to use their special class features (dash, disengage, dodge) as part of their Movement each turn.
1b) Monk throughput goes from a bonus action off-hand attack to just additional attacks with their action. You just add another attack in there, and spending ki/exertion adds more to the attack action, rather than splintering off into an additional action.
2) Quicken Spell lets you use two spell slots on your turn, wiping out your magical access, until you recover, for big bursty damage.
3a) Dual Wielding doesn't give you additional attacks. If you hit while dual-wielding you can give up your ability bonus to damage to roll the off-hand weapon's damage in its place. If you miss with your main hand you can reroll the attack to only deal your off-hand weapon's damage die.
3b) Rogue Sneak attack applies to a successful attack, regardless of which hand lands it, once per turn.

I'm guessing part of your goal here is to push hard for 3-round-combat length as well?

Re: movement, perhaps it should be an Exertion cost? Divorce it from BA economy, but have it still have an opportunity cost to move double or more? Bake some of it into the Exertion features?
 

I'm guessing part of your goal here is to push hard for 3-round-combat length as well?
Not specifically, no. I want the combats to play out more or less like the game is designed to, which we can't really know until we get the action economy/nova in line. I think it'll work out so most fights against minions and bandits and the like will be 2-4 rounds (just depending on target count) with larger battles, particularly against enemies with large HP pools like Dragons, going into the 5-7 round range.
Re: movement, perhaps it should be an Exertion cost? Divorce it from BA economy, but have it still have an opportunity cost to move double or more? Bake some of it into the Exertion features?
I was thinking something similar, yeah. Exertion-expenditures as riders for attacks and stuff, rather than as independent actions. "I'm going to use the Windstep maneuver for 1 exertion. I get to dash as part of any other action" type stuff.

The real pain in the behind will be dealing with Dash, Disengage, and Dodge as actions when everyone gets 2 actions on their turn. I think making them mutually exclusive is a good idea (outside of exertion expenditures) but then have Dodge specify that you can't make any attacks, cast any spells, or use any psionic powers on a turn where you Dodge.

Just like the Catch Breath action.
 

The real pain in the behind will be dealing with Dash, Disengage, and Dodge as actions when everyone gets 2 actions on their turn. I think making them mutually exclusive is a good idea (outside of exertion expenditures) but then have Dodge specify that you can't make any attacks, cast any spells, or use any psionic powers on a turn where you Dodge.

Yeah, and then that lets you tie it into certain class Exertion abilities to show off "yeah, this is a dodgy fighter" or whatever; or you can have Warlord types or whatever bestow it on allies as an off turn action.
 

Bonus Actions are not, inherently, a "Moneymaker" idea. They're an idea that takes something from 3rd edition and tries to make it 'work' but really wound up fowling up the action economy system.
ehhhh, can't really agree with you on that one, i think they're a good idea, i think it's a bigger mistake that Wizards stuck so rigidly to the one action, one move and one bonus action structure for all classes and never experimented with giving different classes different amounts of uses for each, i mean most of the fullcasters would stick with 1 A/1 M/1 BA but specifically play with it more for the martials

like, the rogue could get two bonus actions cause they're meant to have lots of little tricks to integrate into their fighting style, the fighter only gets extra attack x1 but they get an extra dedicated attack action each turn (meaning things that trigger off once per attack action can pop off more than once a turn for them) and so on and so forth
 
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